Tag Archive for: PGIM

Mariah Turner: Associate, PGIM Private Capital

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Mariah Turner“If it’s always the loudest voiced people who are taking up space, some of the more insightful opinions get lost,” says Mariah Turner. “I like to think that I’m someone that tries to champion the softer voices in the room.”

Turner speaks to showing up in a room and the community, as both a team player and a leader who amplifies the voices around her.

Finding Balance Within Finance

Having grown up with a father in finance, an economics degree from Harvard University, and a couple of consultative internships under her belt, Turner sought a position in investment management right out of college. More than three years ago, after a year and a half at Allstate, she joined PGIM Private Capital (PPC) and transferred from Chicago to the London office last year.

Initially drawn to sociology out of a fascination for how and why people think and behave the way they do, Turner combined her interest in human behavior with her attraction to finance. She enjoys considering why people make economic decisions and what factors influence the choices they make ̶— a valuable perspective when assessing investment prospects.

“I’m definitely someone who is intellectually curious, and in this industry, every day is different,” says Turner. “There are new challenges and discoveries with each transaction and type of company you’re evaluating. This keeps the work fresh and exciting, which motivates me to learn and do more.”

Turner notes that entering into the workforce five years ago, she knew she was looking for a balance with family and personal life – as her own parents modeled through their involvement in church, community, and after-school activities when she was growing up. “Lifestyle balance can be particularly challenging in the finance world, so what motivated me to come to PPC was knowing that I’d be in a role, in a space in finance, where I could still have that balance.”

Showing Up in a Room and For the Community

“I’ve been very fortunate in that I don’t feel that my race or gender have really been factors in my career to this point. I think it has definitely been more performance-based,” Turner notes. “I participated in speech and debate in high school, and I played sports, so I’m very used to speaking in front of people, being very direct and voicing my concerns. If I didn’t have that personality or had worked in spaces that discouraged those behaviors, maybe my experience would be different.”

Turner admits she is more wary of the possible dynamics at play around race and gender when outside of the office, in external meetings where she might not know what kind of biases are present. This means she’s more hyper-conscious of how she presents herself to get the reactions she hopes for, which could mean changing how she dresses or does her hair. Turner says, “That is something that we, as a society, are going to have to deal with on a longer-term basis.”

Turner is impressed by the leaders who walk their talk day-to-day, be it in the office or the community. “I look up to people with authenticity and passion, who convey it not just with words, but with what they do –whether it’s actively reaching out to people who are more junior, actively seeking their advice, or introducing them to committees or organizations within industries to try to broaden their vantage point.”

Nobody has role-modeled walking their talk more than Turner’s mother. As president of the school-site council, she helped Turner’s elementary school become a distinguished California school. She also began a group in the school district, whose aim was to provide support and advocate for the needs of Black parents and students. Turner observed her mom continuously play an active role in supporting the wider community, a trait she hopes to emulate.

Championing Voices and Being a Team Player

Turner would like her colleagues to see her as a compassionate leader who helps to amplify all the voices in the room.

“If I’m leading a meeting, I like to cold call on people and get a pulse for what different people are thinking, because it’s often people who are more reserved or introverted who have very deep insight,” she says.

Another way she seeks to champion differing perspectives is by having one-on-one conversations, fostering a safe space for people to share their opinions in a more private setting. From here, she can determine how to help those individuals share their thoughts in a larger space.

A rugby player while in college, Turner joined a club rugby team in London and applies the lessons she learned about teamwork from her childhood and current participation in sports.

“Everyone needs to be on the same page and playing their role, and when one person isn’t, it affects the rest of the team,” she says. “This applies to both sports and in the workplace; it is critical to have good communication and know how your actions affect others. In those times when you aren’t feeling your best, I think it’s important to ask for and are willing to receive support from your teammates.”

“I also believe it’s important to be mindful of how your teammates are feeling. Actively asking how others are feeling not only makes them feel more part of the team, but also establishes a level of trust and morale that makes everyone perform better,” she says. “Being aware of how everyone else is feeling helps form a cohesive team because at the end of the day, we’re all working towards the same goal. If one person is having an off day, that’s going to impact the whole team. Knowing how to rally around and motivate that person not only helps the individual but brings the whole team closer together.”

Turner wants to be the type of leader that helps aligns individuals’ goals to the broader team and organization’s vision, enabling everyone to move ahead and progress together.

Being Strong and Giving Back

Growing up, Turner remembers hearing stories about her father’s family working as sharecroppers in Louisiana before they moved to California, her home state.

“Only two generations back, my grandmother was picking cotton in the fields and making dresses out of flour sacks. That’s a reminder the past is not as far back as we perceive it to be.”

The wisdom Turner’s grandmother imparted has influenced her perspectives, “She told me ‘whatever your husband knows how to do, you should know how to do, too.’ Her lessons in perseverance and being self-sufficient have motivated me to be independent.”

What’s in the decade ahead for Turner? She envisions herself with a family and continuing to be led by her curiosity. In Chicago, she was highly involved in volunteering, especially working with children–whether helping to provide healthy meals or reading to them–and was struck by the impact of food insecurity in her community. She now participates in community service through the Junior League of London by helping raise awareness about poverty in the city.

By Aimee Hansen

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Charlene Kennedy: CEO, PGIM Private Capital (Ireland)

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Charlene Kennedy“One of the key attributes of a great leader is authenticity, therefore I refuse to have separate work and home life personalities” says Charlene Kennedy. “ I believe it is time to change the message that women or indeed anyone, needs to adjust their personalities to fit with the corporate world.”

Kennedy speaks to starting out her working life as a mom, leading from authenticity and vulnerability, and holding your vision.

Going Into Her Career as a Young, Single Mom

Kennedy gave birth to her first son in her final year of law studies so being a working mom was her reality from the start: “When I think back, the image that really stands out is sitting at this desk in my little college apartment, the baby in a rocker, and me rocking the baby with my foot while working my way through big, thick law books.”

As a single mother, Kennedy completed her law licensing exams and then secured a role with PricewaterhouseCoopers in their corporate finance team where she qualified as an accountant.

Shortly before the banking crisis, she joined Bank of Scotland Ireland, and was there until the company exited the Irish market. Kennedy then reassessed where she wanted to live and moved to the north coast area of Ireland to enjoy the lifestyle and support of family while growing her own. It was there where she joined Prudential. Coinciding with the arrival of her third child, she moved into PGIM Private Capital, and became CEO of their Irish entity 18 months ago.

“It’s been an extremely challenging but also a very rewarding year. My legal background, my finance background, my banking background, every single one of those aspects I use and weave together in my day-to-day role as CEO,” says Kennedy. “Each twist and turn along the way led me to being the right person for this role at the right time.”

Why Being a Mom Enhanced Her Career

“In my early 20s, most of my peers and colleagues were out partying at the weekend. I think being a mom really focused me on my career,” reflects Kennedy. “I was either at work or studying, or I was looking after my son. I was very serious early because I had a lot of responsibility, which from a career aspect is very helpful.”

She still remembers her weekly and daily schedule, as keeping to a rhythm was important in making her full life work: “Those years built resilience. I gained an ability to deal with challenges, because I confronted so many of them early on.”

Being Led by Curiosity and Desire for Growth

“I am extremely curious. I believe that knowledge and perspective bring a deeper understanding of what you are doing and why you are doing it. The bigger picture perspective allows you to deliver over and above what your role allows and creates opportunity for you and your company,” says Kennedy.

An essential ingredient to self-development in leadership, she feels her curiosity has truly come into greater value in the C-suite, where Kennedy is constantly interpreting “what does this mean?”

Kennedy has learned to embrace that she’s wired for growth more than comfort.

“I’ve had to accept about myself, and my personality, that I always want to be involved and be moving forward,” says Kennedy. “Even when I have taken jobs that could be a Monday-Friday, 9am-5pm, which are good from a lifestyle perspective, I could not just say stop and enjoy it. I couldn’t help but to involve myself in other projects.”

She has learned to manage her own drive to intentionally balance both family and work, which calls on those boundaries she learned young. Today, she is mom to three sons, who are 18, 4 and 2.

“I come home and I put down the phone or the laptop in a corner for family time,” says Kennedy. “I block out my calendar so nobody can put meetings in when the kids are home from daycare so I have those hours exclusively with them, and then I’m open to a meeting with colleagues once they are in bed.”

Holding To Your Vision

Along with many women in her generation, Kennedy feels she was strongly influenced in her worldview by seeing Mary Robinson, a lawyer, who had studied at Trinity College in Ireland and at Harvard Law School, become the first female president of Ireland in 1990: “My mother sat me down in front of the TV during the inauguration and said, ‘If a woman can become president of this country, there is nothing in this world stopping you from being who you want to be and doing what you want to do.’”

Kennedy feels that she internalized that message as a young woman, as did many women in her generation, and it has fortified their sense of belonging to their dreams.

From early on, Kennedy learned the value of keeping your eyes set on the big picture, regardless of situational challenges. “There have been hurdles and challenges along the way, but I don’t focus on them, I focus on where it is I want to go, and the hurdles eventually fade away, and I keep moving forward.”

“That’s the resilience I built,” she says.

Being Authentic as a Woman Leader and Embracing Vulnerability

The biggest skill that Kennedy has leaned into more in her CEO position is vulnerability.

“When you come from a technical background, whether it’s on the law side or the finance side, you pride yourself on technical knowledge and knowing everything about everything,” she notes. “As you step into leadership roles, that isn’t always going to be the case. You have to learn to be comfortable with not knowing everything and turning to others for guidance.”

“I like to surround myself with people that are a lot smarter than me and people from different backgrounds and perspectives. I embrace their challenge and feedback, and actually feel quite uncomfortable in an environment where everyone agrees with me.”

Kennedy has observed that if we truly value authenticity in leadership, then we should not encourage women to fit into a corporate mold that precludes the ability to be themselves.

“I love to see people push the boundaries a little. My husband, as a joke one year, bought me a book on defiant Irish women. I loved it. I keep that book on my desk, and it reminds me that we can achieve great things. You can be professional and successful, but you can also be yourself.”

Beyond all the advice one might receive on how you need to be and how you need to act as a leader, Kennedy suggests one benchmark: “At the end of the day, when you look back, how do you feel about how you behaved as a person? If you want to be proud of what you did, the way you do that is to be true to yourself.”

Being Approachable and Team-Oriented

Kennedy’s first partner she worked for at PwC is among her most inspiring leaders—and one she would want to emulate. He was personable, down-to-earth and approachable, but extremely knowledgeable and effective in his role. Those qualities inspired the organic support and loyalty of his team.

When it comes to managing her teams, Kennedy pulls from her experience playing team sports to emphasize the team approach: “We all have our roles and we all have to equally put in our input in order to deliver on a team focus,” she notes. “We all have our responsibilities, but we all need each other. It’s never about just one person, and when someone is overly focused on only themselves, it is disruptive.”

With time, the one thing Kennedy has improved on is embracing mistakes, and knowing that one mistake does not define a career nor negate your many accomplishments. She remembers a time when a mistake would have overtaken her focus, and she’s had to learn to overcome that tendency to beat herself up.

“I’ve learned to be easier on myself throughout the years. It’s still not easy and it’s something that I have to work at. I have found ways that help me relax, such as exercising and going to reflexology on a regular basis,” says Kennedy.

Kennedy’s sons are her greatest achievements. After hiking to Everest base camp back in 2012, she loves to hike in the mountains of coastal Ireland around Donegal with her family, where she relishes the energetic high of an expanded perspective.

By Aimee Hansen

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Sara Coelho: Partner, Financial Restructuring & Insolvency, Shearman & Sterling LLP

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Sara Coelho“I’m open to things going in a lot of different directions and to seeing things in a different way than people expect,” says Sara Coelho. “I really try to foster that approach, because novel solutions bubble up.”

Coelho talks about why her practice is a jack-of-all-trades art, standing her ground as a woman and the creativity of receptivity within law.

The “Liberal Arts Area of Law”

With Shearman & Sterling since 2016, and promoted to partner this past July, Coelho has been in the insolvency practice for fifteen years.

“Any time you have an insolvency situation, by definition people can’t follow the law. When something isn’t working, you get to take a deep dive into why and have to figure out a way to make something of that, and the tools really vary depending on the business,” she says. “Every situation has its own dimensions, so you constantly get to learn something new. If you are a liberal arts major, you would like what I do.”

Coelho continues, “I’m often doing things I have no prior expertise in, for example, negotiating tax debt and tax statutes, because of the underlying needs of the situation,” she further explains. “Sometimes we litigate to get to a resolution of a dispute. Sometimes we create deals. We’ll use any field of law to construct a deal that takes the situation to a better place.”

Her area is so flexible that when students ask her about a typical day, Coelho tells them to give her a year and she’ll say what she was doing in that period of time. Collaboration with other lawyers and financial advisors is critical to her work: often part of the solution is bringing in the expert who knows the tried-and-true approach, and another is confronting an issue alien to anything she’s ever done. Hence, the sophistication of problems, quality of people and intellectual challenges have held her attention in this field.

The Creativity of Receptivity

Coelho feels persistence has served her. She has always been able to put her head down and commit to a project she’s taken on. She’s been called a “lawyer’s lawyer” in that she has an analytical curiosity and loves to go deep into a problem, which means encouraging a spaciousness for unexpected solutions.

“There’s often a real reluctance to bring forward something that is a little off the wall,” she observes, “but you could miss an opportunity that way.”

In law, creativity is often less conceiving of something new and bringing it into existence, but rather an artful receptivity to the hidden key that already exists that you’re not yet seeing.

“So much of law is a very set underlying body of concepts, and people lose track of a big percentage of it. So often there is just something lurking there, that’s pretty direct and obvious, but actually very hard to see if you don’t come at it with an open mindset,” she explains. “It’s a receptivity, an orientation of faith that there’s going to be useful things that emerge. It’s a melding of a creative mindset with the orthodox.”

Staking Her Ground As A Woman

While Coelho admits her field has an inadequate representation of women, especially senior partners, she also often finds there are more women than she realized. She also feels the reputation of being male-dominated deters women from considering a field they might thrive in: “There are women who are thriving in all of the difficult roles and more than you would think.”

At the same time, Coelho acknowledges that she does feels some pressure to be beyond perfect and tends to speak concisely, getting to her point quickly while she has the moment, whereas she witnesses men talk at length without the social pressure to be precise.

“I’m working on trying to take up more time and space, and defending the perimeter to be able to do that,” she notes, “because sometimes you can’t appropriately advocate otherwise.”

Coelho acknowledges that being a woman distinguishes you, but that advantage can backfire if you’re perceived as the woman lawyer and especially if there’s a general assumption of irrelevance.

For example, on a conference call for a major deal where both Coelho and another female counterpart lawyer represented different clients with predictably different perspectives, the opposing side confused their two arguments, because, she suspects, the woman lawyers’ voices were understood as interchangeable. Coelho finds it hard to imagine that same bewildering lack of differentiation occurring for a man.

“Things still go on, but at the same time, you’re just focused on the problem and the work,” says Coelho. She notes that self-validating verbal feedback from highly respected top lawyers has been a touchstone to measure her lawyering and has kept her from falling into an unproductive level of self-questioning, especially when she’s confronted with aggression or doubt.

Clarifying The “Stupid Questions“

In addition to helping associates become familiar with the essential craft of her “renaissance profession,” Coelho seeks to demystify some of the basics that challenged her. When she first began, she felt one of the hardest parts was just figuring out how things got done – down to how you frame an e-mail and how long you wait to chase up on it.

Coelho volunteers information and invites the conversation around questions she found perplexing when starting out, especially if the response she had was reactive or dismissive: “I try to ask, what would have been the most constructive response for me?”

“For example, as a lawyer, to say how much time should I spend on something is a very loaded question because obviously you should do the best job possible for the client. Well, the best job possible might mean thousands of hours or significant expense, and maybe the client doesn’t want that,” she notes. “So there’s always this judgment about how exactly to approach the problem, how much depth to go in and what are the optimal things to focus on. These are complex judgements people have to make, so I like to be transparent about that kind of process.”

Boiling down why inviting questions as a senior lawyer is important, Coelho says: “The stupid question is the most important one to ask because you definitely don’t want to make a stupid mistake.”

For women in particular, Coelho also emphasizes the importance of really stepping back to ask what you personally want, rather than letting the ongoing demands of your external environment, including simply keeping up with the work, dictate where you end up.

An Unforgettable Mentor

Coelho considers her grandmother the most mindful person she has ever met. As a child, Coelho would join her in hanging laundry, picking fruit or doing some other form of tending to ordinary things.

The most unforgettable moment that affected her was listening to her grandmother talk about one single lemon with such elaborate understanding and appreciation that it underlined a whole wisdom of her Grandmother’s way of living in the world: “Listening to her talk about this lemon and what it was, exactly why it had a different flavor than others and how you would use it, in such depth, crystallized for me her way of being and how wonderful that is. And how much better life is, if you can bring that sort of appreciation and experience to whatever it is you’re doing.”

Coelho adores her three and a half year old son, Caleb, and, in addition to being a prolific reader of social sciences “light” and economics, loves to garden – and as her grandmother, tend attentively to the small and sacred matters of the home.

By Aimee Hansen

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Cheryl Akawie: Head of U.S. Investment Grade Research, PGIM Fixed Income

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“There’s still a notion that all paths in investing lead to investment banking, which dissuades many women from entering into a career in investing, but it’s definitely not the case,” says Cheryl Akawie.

Akawie speaks to holding to your values, the importance of curiosity and why you want to learn from and be the kind of leader you respect.

An Ever-Changing Context

Joining Prudential out of Lehigh University as a finance major, Akawie relatively quickly gravitated from investment auditing to working directly with investments, where she felt her skills and interest would be optimized.

For over 28 years, she’s been working in investments–covering some of the major sectors she began with, such as telecom and cable–and stretching into new sectors such as media and technology.

“Everything changes–the companies have changed, the industries change. Right now, the tech industry is going through tremendous change,” says Akawie. “I’m watching which companies will be winners and losers, so my job stays interesting even within the same sectors.”

Akawie calls herself a ‘credit geek’: “I like to dig into the details of companies and figure out what makes them tick and what they might do next. What will make them successful or not successful as things change–will the big names in linear television be successful when the world has moved to streaming?”


She appreciates how integrated the investment process is from start to finish at PGIM Fixed Income, with hand-in-hand collaboration between analysts and portfolio managers. Taking on a new position leading the U.S. investment grade research team a couple years back has allowed her to support experts across the various sectors, helping ensure the well-established investment process runs smoothly and her teams’ contributions are recognized.

Holding To Your Values

“To me, what has mattered in my success has been being true to myself and not compromising my beliefs. That applies in many different ways,” says Akawie. “For example, I could not be on the sell-side and push an investment idea if I didn’t believe in it. As an analyst, I analyze it and tell it like it is. I’m not going to hold back on my views. Being on the buy-side, we don’t have to buy everything, so it has always been a good natural home for me.”

Going further, she expresses: “I think that principle has stood through all aspects of my career and added to my leadership. You should never compromise your values and you should be willing to stand up for what’s right. You should be willing to stand up for your team.”

Moving into a leadership role has meant taking a more holistic view not only in looking comparatively across industries, but also putting herself in the shoes of others when making organizational decisions.

“If we’re trying to revamp a process, I have to consider what may work better for the team,” she says. “As a leader, it’s important to step out of my role and put myself as the team leader and the organizational leader to consider what is best for the team, regardless of whether it would negatively impact or be inconvenient for me.”

Choosing Your Leadership Approach

Akawie feels her promotion largely came down to her track record on training up more junior analysts across the years. She enjoys working with junior talent and imparting her skills to help develop their ability to analyze, especially appreciating the moment when it all “clicks,” which she argues only happens when the analyst learns to combine fundamental credit research analysis and the relative value decision around which bonds to own.

Her personal leadership approach is to be relatable and approachable, and she keeps an open door policy.

“I had to figure out what kind of leader I wanted to be, and I’ve had different kinds of managers over the years. I’ve had the micromanager, where they want to check over everything that you do. I’ve had the more hands-off manager that recognizes you are a professional,” she says. “I chose to emulate my style more from the latter, because I respected when I was on the other side. I’m here if you need me. I’ll be your coach and advocate. But to get from here to there, use your own style, as long as you get it done.”

Myth-busting: Not All Investment Careers are Investment Banking

In addition to running the investment grade credit research group, Akawie is actively involved in recruiting for the credit research team in addition to sitting on the Talent Council, so she has a special window into the underrepresentation of women.

“It really frustrates me that even now it’s still such a male-dominated industry and in any meeting, there are still noticeably fewer women in the room,” says Akawie, who feels a perception issue plays into this.

“There’s still this perception that all investment careers are investment banking, where you don’t have a life,” she says. “I really wish there was a way to get the message out to young women that there are plenty of fulfilling, lucrative careers that you can have in asset management that don’t involve working 18-hour days and weekends. You can actually live a balanced life while also being a successful investment professional.”

Passion And Curiosity Go A Long Way

Akawie feels that having a passion for investments, as well as a strong intellectual curiosity, is a cornerstone of being a successful credit analyst or portfolio manager.

“Your mind should always be open because you can find investment ideas anywhere. You hear something on the news, or you read an article in Barron’s–you see something not necessarily in your industry, but it could be related,” she notes. “It’s that intellectual curiosity and passion that matters, because it won’t seem like a job, and you’ll have a long and dynamic career.”

Akawie also presses that it’s a measure of intelligence to be honest about what you don’t know, and that it’s critical to remember that in the world of investments, you’re never going to get everything right.

“We’re investing in corporate bonds. They’re not guaranteed. You’re not going to be right 100% of the time,” she says. “One of the harder things when you’re trying to transition somebody from a junior analyst to a senior analyst is developing that willingness to stick your neck out, express your opinion and not be afraid to be wrong. And if you are wrong, admit and own it, don’t make excuses, simply learn and move on.”

She leverages her own curiosity to convert the occasional missed call into a learning experience: “I often review, and I’ll ask what did I miss? What could I have done differently? And, then you make a better investment decision next time because of what you learned this time.”

Being A Leader You Would Respect

Akawie has found informal mentorships are the most valuable kinds of mentoring, which comes back to being open and approachable.

“To be a mentor or to be a mentee, you have to open up and not be afraid to share parts of yourself–so that people actually get to know you and they’re willing to share their secret sauce,” she says. “And I think that comes from having personal relationships. If everything is just business, I think it makes it hard for that relationship to develop.”

When choosing who you wish to learn from, Akawie goes with whom she truly respects. For her, that’s someone who takes pride in their work and gives their full energy, earning the respect of their team, because this is what she values and wishes to do.

Akawie loves traveling the world and seeing new cultures, which have included Africa, Southeast Asia and Hong Kong. Currently, she’s steeped in her latest passion of home remodeling.

By: Aimee Hansen

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How Neurodiversity Can Enhance Your Organization

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neurodiversityRoben Dunkin, chief operations and innovation officer at PGIM, talks about the importance of neurodiversity in creating a culture of innovation in the workplace.

A Lesson From Mom

When she was just a little girl, Roben Dunkin received one of the biggest lessons that would later help shape her nearly three decades in the finance industry, most recently as chief operations and innovation officer at PGIM, the $1.5 trillion asset management business of Prudential Financial Inc. It was a lesson she learned from her mother, a teacher at a school for children on the autism spectrum. Meeting the children her mother worked with and seeing how she related to them was eye opening.

“The autism spectrum is such a broad range of so many different ways the brain works,” Dunkin says. “I could see my mom’s frustration, because the ability to communicate for some of these kids wasn’t there. But at the same time, I saw her compassion and patience. She found a way to understand what each one of them needed and she found a way to get through. She never gave up on anyone.”

That experience was something that stuck with her as she began her career in finance at Lehman Brothers, where she rose to global head of sales and investment banking technology.

“What I learned from my mom actually makes me a good manager—having that patience, and really trying to understand the different levels of how people communicate with each other,” Dunkin says. “It’s not just people with autism, everyone is so different and kind of quirky in their own way. Within my own family, we have a lot of dyslexia and ADHD. When you grow up with that around you, you learn that some people need extra time and attention to bring out their best. And their best might astound you. Not everyone understands that. They think if someone has one of those conditions, they’re not smart, or they’re not good enough.”

After Lehman’s failure in the financial crisis, Dunkin joined Credit Suisse and became a leader in the firm’s technology organization. In a position to influence the company’s talent strategy, she set her sights on changing management’s perception of what traits made a valuable employee.

The Great Untapped Population

“Everyone seems to understand now how important diversity is to a company, but too often, they overlook a large part of our population that is truly underserved, but also incredibly talented—one that crosses, race, religion, gender, sexual orientation and national origin,” Dunkin says. “People across the neurodiverse spectrum, which includes everything from Asperger’s and autism to ADHD and dyslexia, have to face a stigma. Their levels of unemployment are quite higher than the general population—as high as 80%.”

And yet, Dunkin points out, even if someone doesn’t have any of these conditions, they almost certainly know someone who does.

“Earlier in my career, one of my peers had a son who had Asperger’s syndrome and couldn’t get a job. And we talked about how so many people who are on the spectrum, their brains think differently—sometimes they can see patterns other people can’t, they go about solving problems differently, and that can be a good thing. We started just kind of brainstorming, asking, ‘What can we do about this?’”

The idea that Dunkin and her colleague eventually developed was to actively seek out neurodiverse individuals for a pilot program in data science—specifically, to identify anomalies in data surrounding trade fails. Trade fails can happen when there are mistakes in processing or mismatched information, and they can be a costly problem for a firm. One of the goals of Roben’s team was to discover if there were particular clients, types of trades, or other patterns that would help them identify where problems might occur. While AI and machine learning could parse huge amounts of data, the computers had their limitations. There were still reams of data to filter out.

Participants in the pilot program, as it turned out, were quick to find patterns others had missed. “They were able to look at the data and pinpoint the issue, pinpoint the problem. They had the ability to redirect the technology to ask the right questions. That’s such a specific skill set that most of us really have to learn. There seemed to be an innate ability in some of the people that we were working with to be able to do that,” Dunkin says. “It was just really impressive the amount of positive feedback that we got from people working with the individuals in the pilot program. And those participants—they were so thrilled to be employed and really contribute. It was so rewarding on so many levels.”

Dunkin doesn’t want to make it sound simple, because it isn’t. A lot of legwork went into making sure the program was set up for success.

The Right Goals, The Right People, The Right Projects

It’s the same work Dunkin is putting in now to establish the neurodiversity program at PGIM, with one big difference.

“We’re not looking to narrowly focus this on one area of the business,” Dunkin says. “Individuals on the spectrum have skills and interests that are just as diverse as their neurotypical peers, and we see this as something we want all our asset managers to be involved in and benefit from.”

That begins with a firm commitment from the top.

“Neurodiversity can be a very emotional topic,” Dunkin says. “Recently we had a panel with many of our senior leaders at PGIM, some with children who are on the spectrum, even leaders who identify as neurodiverse themselves. The head of our largest asset management business spoke at length about his two sons who have autism. We had hundreds of employees attend and it was game changing for a lot of people who were able to put their hand up and self-identify. We broke through a lot of walls.”

Secondly, for a neurodiversity program to succeed, managers need to be trained and prepared to work with individuals who may miss social cues. Those managers need to be clear about expectations and literal about tasks.

“Cues and signals that we might expect would be normal are not normal for a lot of people on the spectrum. So you have to ask questions differently—you have to be more nuanced, and can’t worry about body language and eye contact. Job interviewers and managers should be able to understand how to engage with people differently,” Dunkin says. “It’s important to learn where someone is on the spectrum and understand how to help them thrive and deliver their very best. Do they feel more comfortable emailing, do they not do well in a group setting? You want to always be learning how you can give and receive feedback so you can course correct relatively quickly.”

The remote work environment brought on by the pandemic has added to this challenge.

“In some cases, if you talk to some of the people who are on the spectrum, they’re loving remote work, because they don’t have to interact with people in person,” Dunkin says. “At the same time, for a manager, it makes it even more difficult to engage with that individual and make sure they feel included.”

Finally, Dunkin says you need to connect individuals with the right projects, with a clear business case and business value.

“You can’t necessarily put someone on a trading desk environment, but you can put someone on in a data science role. So it’s being very clear about matching the person and the right skill set with the right job and being really explicit about what you’re aiming to accomplish,” Dunkin says.

Why all this matters

“The financial services industry is struggling to hold onto talent,” Dunkin says. “And here is a talent pool that is able and willing to work, and has skills to contribute in the right roles.”

Her prior experience tells her the effort is worth it.

“It’s hard to find data scientists—you can’t train them fast enough. And we know there’s high attrition rates in data science—when you train them, they leave. But our neurodiverse employees in the pilot program were super loyal. We built a team of data scientists from scratch who were able to help us leapfrog ahead quite drastically to meet our goals. We’d done right by them, we gave them a chance, and they rewarded us by staying with the company.”

Dunkin believes that attention paid to neurodiversity in an organization has a much wider impact on company culture, leading to better outcomes for all employees.

“The pandemic has been a very challenging time,” she says. “We’re all uncomfortable, we’re all re-learning how to interact with each other, we’re all working differently. We all need compassion and patience. If we’re not using this moment to identify talented individuals inside and outside our organizations and do what we need to do to support them, then we’re wasting a golden opportunity.”

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Anna de Jong: Head, Client Advisory Benelux and Nordics, PGIM Fixed Income

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Anna De Jong“A lot of people will tell you this or that can’t be done, and that goes for your personal and your professional life, but don’t take that as a given,” advises Anna de Jong. “Have the confidence and be strong until you get the answer that works for you.”

De Jong speaks about how the journey you take is what shapes you, the importance of knowing yourself and having the confidence to pursue the important questions.

What Defines You is the Journey You’re On

After growing up in a small village in the north of Holland, where she felt her limbs wanting to stretch even as a girl, de Jong adventured for a half year opportunity in London that became fifteen years between Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley and other firms, thriving amidst a diversity of people, experiences, inspiration and opportunities.

Just when she reached the point of considering a move back to Holland for family motivations two years ago, PGIM Fixed Income approached about her current role in the Netherlands, which met the professional trajectory she also wanted. With London life having felt as much like home to her, de Jong reframes the question of where are you from to what it’s really about.

“It’s not where you’re from that matters. It’s just a box that people want to put you in. Ultimately, it’s about the journey that you’re on and the journey that you take that opens doors, or closes them,” she reflects.

It’s About The Personal Factor

The people factor has always magnetized her to her work. “In my field of work, I work for my clients and prospects, and I need to very quickly understand who I’m dealing with and how to progress things,” says de Jong. “You must be able to read people quickly in order to be successful, and that still holds today. I think that human element is what makes me most content in my work.”

De Jong advises that when working closely with others, it’s important to know yourself so you don’t lose your own intentions in any deal or interaction: “I’ve learned you need to hold your ground. You must understand yourself in order to do well professionally, but also personally. That’s a journey I also help other people with: stick with your convictions, yet be open to learning.”

Being approachable is important to de Jong: “I don’t think in different levels. I’ve learned from all walks of life and different parts of business and people,” says de Jong. “I’m always available and listening to everybody around. I am genuinely interested in people, and I think if you can understand what’s going on, then a lot of things make more sense, and it also matters when achieving the right results.”

De Jong notes that while remote working has been validated, being together with your team and clients is invaluable for creating connection and work culture.

“Covid is a lonely time, I think,” she reflects. “And ultimately you spend so much of your time at work. It’s good to see people, but being behind a screen also hides a lot. There’s no longer an excuse for saying that we can’t work from home because we all clearly can, but it’s also important to be with colleagues and have face-to-face time.”

Knowing and Balancing Your Values

“Someone once told me that when your career takes off, something else is going to suffer. For a long time, I was convinced that you have to work very hard while other things would have to take a backseat,” says de Jong. “ I have become of the opinion that’s entirely untrue. You are actually more successful when you understand what is really important to you and cultivate personal satisfaction, as well.”

Years ago, a friend introduced de Jong to a four pillar system. The four pillars represent what is personally important to you and emphasize keeping what matters to you in a balance. She uses the analogy of a chair, it can function with three but ideally needs four legs to be fully stable. For de Jong, she values home and family, friends, work and health: “If one gets out of whack, it makes the rest volatile and you do not perform as well, personally or professionally. It can be a juggling act, but you don’t have to forget about what’s important in your personal life in order to succeed in professional life and vice versa. In a way, they all become one.”

When the work aspect of life becomes too much, de Jong feels it’s important and okay to speak up about that, and not fall into the cultural notion of having to keep everything separate. Personally, she doesn’t resonate with a sense of being “successful” that connotes “achieving the best results regardless.”

De Jong does not perceive that getting the result, no matter what the impact on others or personal life, can ever be success. Rather, she speaks more to harmony and co-creation from a place that is aligned with your internal values.

When it comes to her personal success, “I do my work with lots of pleasure and have happy clients who are keeping and raising assets,” she notes, “but it’s also being home with my daughter and husband. It’s as elementary as that.”

De Jong feels well-matched by the atmosphere at her workspace: “PGIM Fixed Income has this fantastic work culture, that when I joined just felt like a warm blanket – where people work together, give each other challenges and opportunities. It’s been really fantastic.”

With a desire to keep growing, she is curious about pursuing courses in ESG investing and being able to mentor even more in that space.

Guidance For The Journey

“Some guidance that really stuck with me is to ask the same question until you get the right answer,” she notes, having tried this out in areas like promotion as well as anytime you’re immediately told something isn’t possible. “I will continue asking a question until I get the answer that I think works best.”

De Jong tells mentees: “Know, embrace, respect yourself and dare to be different. You have to be yourself, because if you don’t know who you are, then you don’t know where you’re going. It’s the journey you’re on that defines who you are. Embrace that.”

She emphasizes accepting and learning and being willing to let something go when it’s not the right thing. The more honest and non-judging you can be with yourself and others, feels de Jong, the more trust you build and the more you create results together. She has always advised women to be kind to each other, as it can be especially tricky to navigate in banking or finance when you first begin as a woman.

The hardest experience she’s had was in a previous role when she returned from maternity leave only two and a half months after having her daughter, and found part of her region moved from her remit and no expanded team as anticipated. Reflecting, she realizes the feeling that she could only take such a short leave was a red flag in feeling supported.

De Jong feels both men and women can contribute to normalizing parental leave by embracing it, and notes that her own husband has been a huge support.

Vocalize and Invest In Your Needs

De Jong now realizes that earlier in her career, she was often too scared to really ask for what would fulfill her, and so she often got something else. She feels it’s important to be very clear when you’re not satisfied.

“I would get frustrated but nobody seemed to notice, and then I would hand in my resignation and people were so surprised and often disappointed,” says de Jong. “They would ask, ‘why did you not tell me before?’ And I seriously thought I had, but clearly hadn’t been very vocal about my dissatisfaction.”

De Jong enjoys her four-year-old daughter, playing piano and is still looking for an experience in Holland akin to the community volunteer hub she loved in London. Her favorite volunteer work has been a charity she helped create called Launchpad Labs, which offered workspace and mentoring to those with challenging backgrounds.

“Helping others is a great way to stay on your feet to understand the bigger picture and that helps in your personal space and helps with your work,” says de Jong, “It helps to ground those four pillars and understanding what is important.”

She emphasizes investing in yourself and your personal happiness, as well as listening to your body. She loves exercise, baking, and continuing to learn and grow.

By: Aimee Hansen

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Geklang Lee: Chief Operating Officer, PGIM Real Estate, Asia-Pacific

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Geklang Lee“I think women’s trajectories should not be compromised when they have children, and that’s something that we need to advocate for,” says Geklang Lee. “I was fortunate enough to work in companies which were more enlightened.”

Lee speaks to accepting challenges, taking a career break for motherhood, being an executive and showing up in full integrity.

Seizing The Opportunity to Level Up

Born in Singapore, Lee was initially drawn to chemistry and biochemistry and scientific research. Unable to align with a path in genetic engineering, she took a completely different turn and chose to do research in the financial world.

She began in a research role on the sell-side in the public sector: “That fulfilled my desire and my interest in research. It fulfilled the analytical aspect of me.” Her enjoyment of the work drove her success and by 32 years old, she was a managing director.

Then Lee shifted to become a strategist, heading up the equity business in Singapore for Indosuez WI Carr, before moving again to become an Executive Director at UBS, to set up the Singapore Equities institutional research team which was subsequently ranked by Institutional Investors. As leadership opportunities came at her, Lee took them on despite the internal doubts to whether she was ready.

“Very often, women are much more cautious about opportunities or in raising their hands for opportunities. We feel like we need to be sure and know everything before we commit, because we want to do well,” says Lee. “But my view is that we should not shy away from challenging opportunities, putting ourselves out there and getting out of our comfort zone. If we set our minds to it and are willing to put in the hard work, then we can get the job done.”

Letting Go For Motherhood and Coming Back Again

“So many women feel that if they take time off to have a baby, they will be disadvantaged,” she says. “Sometimes organizations feel that way, too: you take time off, someone has to do your work, so there has to be a compromise. But I strongly disagree with that.”

In her case, both times Lee took maternity leave to have her children, she experienced an advancement. While on maternity leave with her first child, she received a big salary increase. When she came back from her second maternity leave, she was promoted to head the Singapore equity business at Indosuez WI Carr.

When over 40 years old, Lee left the UBS Executive Director role to spend three years with her three children, even though it felt like a risky move.

“I had already missed the growing years for my two older kids. I’d always had that guilty feeling of not being a mom, and had told myself I would look after my grandchildren,” she says. “But when my youngest was born, I decided, no, why should I wait? I actually wanted to spend time and bond more with my kids.”

For the first year, she retained a part-time consultancy with UBS. For the second two years, she was a full-time mom. Then as circumstances changed with her husband’s firm, she decided to return to work and reached out to her network contacts, which she had nurtured. Soon she was running the global real estate market neutral strategy for a hedge fund, before moving to PGIM Real Estate.

“Women shouldn’t be concerned about not being able to come back into the workforce, but I think what is critical is that we need to keep our contacts, “she says. “I always encourage people to keep your contacts within the network, as it’s extremely important for helping to build career path and opportunities, staying in touch with the markets, and moving jobs or returning to the workforce.”

Shifting To The C-Suite

At PGIM, Lee had the opportunity to go from managing the Asia Pacific public equities real estate portfolio to assuming the position of Chief Operating Officer for Asia Pacific real estate business. Moving from investments to a COO role was definitely pushing beyond her comfort zone.

“As a COO, you cannot be an expert in everything, but the team is there to support us as leaders. We provide the strategic direction,” says Lee. “Humility is important, recognizing they know more than me in the job they do, because they are the experts.”

Lee is dedicated to developing people, and emphasizes the leadership traits of versatility and adaptability—being open to different mindsets, perspectives and ways of doing things.

“Even if someone presents something that I do not agree with initially, I do need to listen, and reflect before making any judgments,” she says. “Everyone has a lot to offer. The young people today have a lot to offer, and if we are open enough to listen and allow them to present their ideas, then it will make us all stronger leaders and a stronger organization.”

Showing Up With Integrity

Lee never planned her career path, but has always put her best into anything she does. She feels that in her case, her commitment and hard work produced results, earned recognition and created opportunities.

Lee learned by emulating some of her previous supervisors. When she was deputy head in a previous firm, she noticed and admired how the head of the team did everything with the team’s interests in mind.

“When I was subsequently promoted to his position, because he moved on to greater things, I remember asking myself: am I willing to fight for my team, even to the extent that I may compromise my job? Am I willing to fight for my team for what is right?” she says. “Only when I was prepared to do that, did I accept the role.”

Thinking to her childhood, Lee remembers being a little girl in an underprivileged family and loving music but being unable to afford music lessons. When she was able to join the school band, her instructor said: “whether it rains or it snows, you have to turn up for practice.” She laughs that it never snows in Singapore, but if it were to, you still show up. At seven or eight years old, this left a big impression upon her.

“I think that developed my sense of commitment,” Lee reflects. “When you commit to do something, you just turn up. You turn up all the time. Regardless.”

Doing Things Differently and Better

Lee feels that as a woman, she shows up differently in a way that strengthens the table.

“As a woman, I don’t look at everything just as a task. There is often that softer touch that we bring to the table,” she says. “That helps when I’m running teams, because I’m not only interested in the output, but just as much in the individual.”

Lee is excited about how the forced circumstances of remote working has created rapid technology advancements and mindset shifts while raising questions: “How do we connect with our colleagues? How do we make sure that they feel part of the organization? How do we continue to build a team culture?”

Lee is energized by the company’s strategic operating initiatives —known as PGIM Real Estate 2.0—being ed by PGIM Real Estate’s Global chief operating officer, Cathy Marcus: “It’s essentially encouraging us to rethink the way we do things, and why we do them that way, in order to see if things can be done better,” says Lee.

Her children are now 27, 25 and 21. Lee loves sports and runs every day. She also plays the saxophone, enjoys pottery and embroidery, and does volunteer work with refugees in the greater region as well as migrant workers.

By Aimee Hansen

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Noelle Ramirez: Project Manager, Diversity, Equity & Inclusion, PGIM

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Noelle Ramirez“I bring to the table my lived and learned experience as a woman, a lesbian woman, a Hispanic woman,” says Noelle Ramirez. “The things that kept me quiet in the room before are the things making me speak the loudest in the Diversity, Equity & Inclusion space.”

She speaks to showing up visibly to create belonging, how to expand the diversity of recruitment, and the prerequisite importance of culture.

Being The Representation You Want To See

Given her love for people and their stories, Ramirez chose to study immigration throughout her undergrad at Dartmouth. During recruiting season in college, she never saw herself, as a Puerto Rican woman, in asset management. Literally. The recruiters and classmates on that track did not look like her.

“I didn’t see myself, and the lack of representation was something that I shied away from,” she recalls. “But a lot of my perceptions were really misperceptions. I just did a talent research project at PGIM, where we found there’s a huge perception issue for the wealth and asset management industry felt by not only women, but also Latinx individuals, Hispanic individuals, black individuals: I don’t see myself, so how could I go that route?”

So when Ramirez moved to a focused diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) role in asset management, she did so with intention.

“I can be the representation that I want to see and make an impact in an industry that needs more people like me,” she says. “Highlighting different voices is something I want to do—you don’t have to be a math major or male or straight in this industry. You can show up, do a good job and succeed. I found there’s some amazing, diverse people in this industry. They’re just not the voices we have traditionally highlighted first.”

Casting A Wider Net for Recruiting

“The most rewarding piece of my work is to create an opportunity and open a door, where traditionally that door may not have existed,” says Ramirez, “to be able to put that spotlight on someone who might not have been seen and say, ‘I see you and there’s space for you here.’”

In the Latinx talent space, Ramirez experienced one of her biggest moments of impact when she and a colleague dared to cast a wider net. They traveled to Hispanic-serving institutions in Florida, well outside of the typical target schools, and met Luisa Maria Machado Artimez, a first generation American who came to the US at the age of 12 from Cuba and served in the US Army for a year before starting college. Ramirez found Luisa to be “one of the most inspiring young women that I’ve ever worked with and probably will ever know.”

Ramirez and her colleague agreed they wanted to find a way to invite Luisa into the industry via an internship at PGIM. She joined the summer program, was a star performer and is returning next year.

“That’s why I do this work. It’s easy to make the case for casting a wider net when you know someone like Luisa has been brought into the organization and succeeded,” she says. That’s when the higher-level support comes and then you can create an entire strategy around that.”

Making the Business Case

“You’re not going to move mountains when it comes to DEI in a month, or even a year. We’re fighting things like systemic racism that have been in place for generations,” she says, “so it’s important to celebrate small wins.”

Ramirez emphasizes being strategic and data-driven in the DEI sphere.

“For some people, it really is showing them exactly what they are missing by not caring about this,” she notes, “creating that story and walking them to that finish line, so they can take the step to make the change in the organization.”

For example, one of her DEI focuses has been on identifying where core Latinx talent is concentrated in the organization, to establish allyship to support that talent in moving towards more leadership positions.

“The Latinx population is becoming the majority minority—this is, the fastest-growing population, a more educated and entrepreneurial population, set to become the majority homeowners in the next 20 years,” she observes. “If the industry doesn’t have a strategy that’s going to capitalize on this talent, we’re completely missing the boat from a business perspective.”

She notes the “three P” factors that are barriers to Latinx recruitment in the industry:

  • Perception: This is not an industry that I see anyone like me in.
  • Talent Pipeline: I don’t even know or understand what asset management is, so how would I choose it?
  • Passion & Purpose: Can I feel good and passionate about wealth creation?

“If we don’t know the barriers to address,” says Ramirez, “then how are we going to work towards them as an industry?”

“Job hunters today are looking for a career that aligns with their values and that they can feel good about – and rightly so, we should feel passionate about purposeful in the work we do every day.”

Ramirez feels there needs to be more emphasis on getting different voices out there to attract a diverse talent pool as well as sharing stories about how companies are doing good and can align with your values, like PGIM’s huge investment in the community of Newark, New Jersey.

Put Culture First and Create an Inclusive Environment

When it comes to advice on making career-related decisions, she tells others: “Culture first. Seek out advice from people that are already there. What has their experience been? Do they feel comfortable? Do they feel like they can bring who they are to the table? If the answer is yes, that’s a good place to start. It takes away a lot of productivity and energy to not be who you are.”

“Go somewhere where you can be yourself. I’m very passionate in my delivery and it’s part of my culture. Making sure I’m in an environment where that doesn’t have to be shut off is important,” she says. “Look for environments that are ready to receive you, because that’s where you’ll be your most productive, innovative, creative and strategic.”

Another core component of Noelle’s team’s work is to create a safe space so that people can comfortably share as little or as much about their own experience as they wish.

“I’m a lesbian. I can talk about my partner every Monday morning. I would say as an industry, we are behind in creating safer spaces where people can be 100% themselves,” she notes. “We have an LGBTQ+ Think Tank at PGIM, which is comprised of Out leaders across the organization, which is thinking of ways to highlight LGBTQ+ voices and to give them a platform to share and educate.”

For me, I made the conscious decision to be out at work, especially when I joined the DEI space, because I felt like there weren’t many out people that I could go to and seek advice from, and I wanted to be that for someone else.”

Of her own intersectional identity, Ramirez notes, “I’m a white passing person and there’s privilege in that. Early on in my career, it was much easier to just blend. But moving into the DEI space, all of the things that made it uncomfortable now instead legitimize me and give me a platform to stand on.”

“How am I going to show up today from my voice?” Ramirez notes it’s a daily struggle. “From your voice to your hair to your clothes to your delivery, these are not necessarily things that are on everyone else’s mind.”

Ramirez is a huge athlete and since her father introduced her two years ago, she’s been obsessed with one the world’s fastest growing sports: pickleball—which combines elements of badminton, table tennis and tennis.

Played by people of all ages, not only has it allowed her to get outdoors daily during the pandemic, but she’s also made close friends with people she would have never otherwise met. Though her partner is more inclined to music than sports, she also often joins Ramirez on the court.

By: Aimee Hansen

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Lindsay Rosner, CFA: Principal at PGIM Fixed Income

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Lindsay Rosner “What’s guided me throughout my career is looking for people who are both happy and genuinely interested in what they’re doing,” says Lindsay Rosner about her career journey. “I want to see that personal happiness factor.”

As a fixed income investor, Rosner can talk about the credit markets all day long, but when it comes to professional development she speaks to investing in yourself. For her that means taking your seat at the table and not being afraid to bring your whole self to work.

During the pandemic, she’s seen more kids, dogs, and spouses than she ever imagined could enter the workplace, but those interactions have helped bring a real human element to business, and for Rosner that’s a step in the right direction.

Insisting on Personal Happiness Factor

While every job has its grunt work – she remembers taking breakfast orders as a Wall Street intern – Rosner looks for work that enlivens her and the people around her.

“I started on Wall Street right out of college. There were some unhappy people,” she recalls. “Fortunately, I worked with quite a few clients who were happy. So, I tried to find myself a job that would prove both professionally challenging and personally satisfying.”

Rosner loves constantly learning, addressing problems, finding solutions and being part of developing and implementing new products.

Recently, she’s animated by exchange traded funds (ETFs) in the fixed income space, allowing access to diversified investments with lower dollar amounts, as well as Environmental Social Governance (ESG) factors and increasingly ESG funds. While governance has always been fundamental to the bottom-up credit analysis conducted by Rosner and her PGIM Fixed Income colleagues, she enjoys being part of the broader ESG conversation which increasingly has shifted to include not only an emphasis on governance, but also social and environmental criteria.

ESG factors are more and more part of the conversations Rosner has with her institutional and retail clients, but also part of the conversations credit analysts are having with Chief Financial Officers and Treasurers because those factors can and do impact the cost of financing.

Investing in Your Value Equation

Early in her career, Rosner was positioned in the equities division of Lehman Brothers as the firm was going under. She found herself in a precarious position that she has not since forgotten and that has informed her decisions.

“Two years out of college on the trading floor means that you are only beginning to understand the markets and risks of positions. You’re deftly quick in putting together the morning meeting packets, have mastered ordering lunch for 40 people and frequently assist senior traders; However, you aren’t in the driver seat yet.” she states. “When Lehman was facing bankruptcy, I saw all the more senior people who I’d been assisting every day interviewing to get their lives figured out, and I quickly learned I needed more marketable skills and a wider network.”

As Barclays purchased Lehman Brothers, Rosner was never out of a job, but realizing she was on her own was a harrowing experience that taught her a valuable lesson: “I will never put myself in a position again where I don’t have the skills. If something happens totally out of your control, you have to be ready.”

Despite many views on the trading floor that a CFA designation was not necessary for a trading role, Rosner attained her CFA as a personal insurance policy and to fortify her credentials. Rosner has since chosen to keep her knowledge and skillset wide, rather than niche.

“Even within your organization, you have to think about the opportunities for specific roles or jobs through the lens of what is best for you,” she says. “For me, I’ve always chosen to pursue roles that are broader.”

Claiming Your Seat at The Table

Rosner emphasizes that you have to actively claim your seat at the table and occupy it with your whole self.

“If you want to be involved in the conversation, you don’t sit in the seat in the back of the conference room,” she asserts. “If there are not more seats, you should pull your chair up to the table and get involved to the appropriate degree.”

Rosner admits she has leaned towards over-preparation in claiming that seat.

“Diversity is not where I’d like it to be in the industry. That’s not only from the gender standpoint. It’s racial diversity as well. I care tremendously to see that change,” says Rosner. “With fewer senior women, I always over-prepare. If that comes across as confidence, I’ve made it look easy. But the fact is, I have a lot to prove.”

But she has also learned to embody her own skin fully.

“You get to a point in your life where you realize you have to be yourself. The path forward isn’t going to happen unless you are,” states Rosner. “That means bringing all of you to the table, not being ashamed to talk about having children, etc. There are times where I will question if the analogy I use, or story I tell, will resonate with the room, but you have to be yourself to be successful.”

Bringing Your Whole Self

“I speak loud. I use my hands. I’m pretty emotive. I have a lot of facial expressions. I bring a little bit of my personal life into my work life, whereas some draw a hard-line,” says Rosner. “I just think, this is the whole me. You need all of it.”

When starting out, she remembers taking training classes for client lunches. “There’s so much importance placed on professionalism, and some of it is so contrived,” she observes. “At the end of the day, these are people too who you’re working with.”

Rosner has long invited back her sense of self-deprecating humor to the office, as part of what helps build connection and relationships, and part of her own professionalism.

“You don’t connect with people when it’s all buttoned up. I love being a storyteller, telling a story and making people laugh,” she says. “We all have those relatable, funny moments and experiences and people will remember those interactions.”

“You’re not always going to connect by talking about a company’s balance sheet. Instead, be vulnerable. Being yourself allows others to be themselves,” she notes. “People value that you remember their kid was going to an important doctor’s appointment and ask what occurred. That’s being real.”

Building Your Village

“I think everybody needs a village. So much is building that village of men and/or women who support you, professionally or personally,” notes Rosner. “It’s all give and take. You have to help somebody in order to get it back.”

While she’s found you can learn from any partnership, Rosner has often benefited the most from the informal mentorships where “often you don’t realize it’s a mentorship until later,” even when the benefit might be tough love.

“Everyone can offer something. There are different times in your career where you’ll need different people so it’s important to keep those contacts,” she notes. “You may not need them for three years, but in a moment you realize that person is the perfect person to give advice on this issue, and you reach out to them.”

On the flip-side, Rosner notes that seeing people who she mentored do well is as rewarding and fulfilling as if it were her own success.

Working From Home

With a three year old and a twenty month old at home, Rosner has enjoyed and needed the flexibility of the remote workplace, whereas the previous expectation was full team presence on the trading floor. The pandemic has put into consideration whether that’s as critical as once believed.

Rosner notes that the remote workspace has brought more recognition and valuing of a perspective that women have always been able to offer.

“Women really have a pulse on what’s going on in the family and the balance sheet of basic consumers in the country,” says Rosner. “You can bring that kind of knowledge to bear, and it’s actually valuable in my work setting now.”


She’s also found the remote workplace means she can be available more easily to chat with others when it comes to mentoring and networking, and even more so with those outside of her organization.

Rosner loves spending time outdoors with her little ones and is enjoying the arrival of spring.

By Aimee Hansen

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Jamila Houser: Deputy Chief Underwriter – Agency Lending, PGIM Real Estate

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Jamila Houser“People often say ‘if you can see it, you can be it.’ Well if you don’t see it, does that mean you can’t be it?” challenges Jamila Houser.

Houser speaks honestly on qualifying yourself, showing up as you and the challenges of leveling up while finding your balance.

Getting Into The Door

With strong natural abilities in math and science, Houser grew up thinking her job options were becoming a doctor or an engineer.

But while picking up her second undergrad degree at Georgia Tech (in engineering), she realized that designing laptop fans—her final senior test —was not the gateway to her ideal field, as a naturally outgoing people person.

After working in consulting at Accenture, she moved towards a real estate concentration in her MBA at Georgia State, which eventually launched her into 17 years of moving up through the ranks with PGIM Real Estate so far—where she loves the people, culture, challenges and opportunities.

But getting that initial foot in the door was no small feat. Her resume lacked real estate experience and 75% of the job post read like a foreign language. So Houser chose to emphasize from her daily life how she was a bright individual with genuine passion for the space, who could learn and had the energy to come in, figure things out and get stuff done.

“What skills do you think you bring to the space and what is it that interests you most about this opportunity?” Houser advises to ask, emphasizing that as women we too often mistake that we have to tick every box.

“Forget the fact that you have no experience,” she says. “How can you communicate your interest in such a way that you convince them that you are worth the investment?”

She recommends to be aware of the energy you are bringing foremost, come with clarity on what skills you offer and clearly exemplify those skills and how they will add value.

She also attributes her success to managers who had the courage to do something different and invest in knowing and growing her.

“It’s so important that when people are choosing an organization to work with, they are interviewing that manager just as much as they are being interviewed,” notes Houser. “You want to go somewhere where there are people who see value in you and are going to do their part to help ensure your success.”

If You Can’t See It, Can You Still Be It?

Houser admits feeling like an outsider when she initially entered into finance those couple decades ago. The industry appeared to be a conservative, formal and stifled male world where she didn’t belong as a warm and friendly people person.

While there are far more women and women events since she entered the industry, Houser notes that it still takes energy to network in a conference room where she is one of few people of color, let alone senior women of color.

“I think for me personally I have had to get comfortable with being uncomfortable,” she says. Houser has learned to go into new roles as who she is, not measuring her compatibility for the role by the gender, skin color, personality or approach of her predecessor.

“I may not see someone who looks like me, talks like me, sounds like me, but I still see myself in people who are in leadership,” she notes. “You get to realize you’re not that different.”

“I’ve never met a stranger. I just love people,” says Houser. “And I can empathize and understand that the people I’m dealing with are in a large part influenced by the lenses they’ve developed over time. So I can build relationships in a way that allows us to get to know each other.”

Recently, in a Zoom presentation to several heads of business, a simple smile from one gentleman amidst a screen of faces reminded her: “You’re just talking to other regular human beings. You’re here, you have something to say and they’re here to listen to you.”

Leveling Up Your Skills and Brand

“I’ve built my brand on hard work,” says Houser, coming from a line of single mothers. Her own mother completed her Ph.D. across 20 years while also working three jobs.

“Hard work, determination and persistence caused me to rise in the organization very quickly up to a certain point. The earlier promotions happened automatically,” Houser observes. “But there comes a point where those qualities alone are not enough, and moving up through senior management levels requires mastering new skills.”

Houser admits she works to rebuild proficiency and confidence each time she levels up.

“I have to be very intentional about negative speak—especially when I’m going into new positions or new opportunities,” she says of the critical inner voices familiar to many of us. “How quickly can I cut that off?”

Houser is grateful for mentors and sponsors who have witnessed and magnified her strengths as well as been able to point out her subtler blindspots or gaps… and dissolve her false concerns.

With her recent promotion, she’s been facing the common leadership growth pains of moving from the “hardworking” brand she’s confidently built her career on to redefining her value by leading and supporting others to be effective and productive.

“I hold myself to a very high standard, probably unreasonably high,” says Houser, “so when you’re shifting to no longer being the doer but now the manager, you have to tone it down. Moving from colleague, or peer, to manager is a difficult transition that I’m still mastering.”

Rather than assume how her team wants her to support them, her approach has been to get very clear on what support her team needs from her while communicating what she needs and expects from her team.

At first it was difficult not to jump in and put her hand in everything out of habit, but the sheer volume of work has shifted her towards more delegation and trust, so she can focus on where she needs to go now too.

Finding Your Authentic Expression

Houser is an outcomes-driven person who has learned across time to bridge the conversation differently with those who are more process, detail or strategy-oriented, with their own inclinations and gifts.

One of her personal journeys has been finding her authentic expression in a professional setting, and letting that move with her.

“The switch flipped for me with authenticity that I can still be myself but there’s a way to be myself at work,” says Houser, noting her husband pointed out to her that her professional self is as much a part of her wholeness as her Sunday dinner self.

“I have had to wrestle with the idea of authenticity,” says Houser, “and I think I’ve become much more comfortable that I can be who I am and express how I express. I have found the right balance where I bring my authentic self but into the work setting.”

Bringing Others Up With You

“Once it clicked that not only do I have a seat at the table, but people also look up to me,” observes Houser, “I began to take the responsibility to lift others to success very seriously.”

While she used to be focused solely on her own contribution, Houser now spends most of her time looking around to see who she can advocate for, make visible and elevate, building the close mentor relationships she herself has valued as a mentee.

“I especially champion the ones who no one is thinking about, nobody is talking about, they’re not raising their hand,” she says. “They’re fine sitting over there and doing their job every day to a very high degree.”

“That gives me so much joy,” says Houser, “using the skills, the talent, the relationships, the knowledge I’ve gained to help someone else be successful.”

Practicing Self-Care to Show Up For Others

As many women share, being passionate about her job in the remote, 24/7 availability work environment and being a mother of ten and eight year old sons who are distant learning beside her at home has made creating balance more challenging.

“I’ve found that if I don’t take care of myself, I can’t show up and be there for my staff, for my kids or my husband,” observes Houser. “So though I may want to put my hand in all these efforts and do all of these things, I need to put my own oxygen mask on first.”

She has found declaring self-care recharge days and moments for herself to be a necessary grace. She plans to cultivate more intentional quality time and movie nights with her boys.

Houser finds meditative rhythm by running in a women’s group each morning come rain or snow, and gardening continues to be a lifelong love of hers, with a future interest in helping to create urban farms.

By Aimee Hansen

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