Jo Natauri, Partner, Investment Banking Division, Goldman Sachs

Jo NatauriWomen in the work force need to make an effort not to be so hard on themselves, says Jo Natauri, a partner at Goldman Sachs. “You have to accept that you won’t be functioning at 100% in all aspects of your life all the time. Sometimes you are a 100% mother or wife, and sometimes you’re 100% at your job, but often it will be somewhere in between. You have to be ok with pushing and pulling levers in your life, rather than going full bore on all of them at the same time. Frankly it’s a balance you have to acknowledge irrespective of your gender.”

Intersection of Healthcare and Finance

During her time as an undergrad at the University of Virginia, Natauri’s interests shifted from pursuing a career practicing medicine to one in finance. Working with a quadriplegic while in school, she was struck by the many difficulties he was having obtaining adequate medical care, as well as the financial means to cover it. “Seeing an accomplished individual still having these issues changed my course. I realized I wanted to be involved in healthcare in a meaningful way on the business side.”

Because of previous coursework, she had the flexibility to earn a degree in both economics and biology, and went into investment banking. Her plan when she started in 1998 was to spend time learning and understanding the business side and then eventually transition into policy, but instead she has spent her entire career in various roles in the healthcare business. She started at Goldman in 2006 as a vice president, and became a managing director in 2008 and partner in 2012.

Natauri is excited by her work on transactions in the sector with cutting-edge companies that are focused on helping people and curing diseases. “The altruistic component to the finance I’m doing is really important to me,” she says, “And, due to the profound changes in healthcare, the industry will continue to offer new opportunities.”

Passion = Success

Though Natauri has always felt a passion for the finance industry, she suggests young women who might be considering a career in banking recognize the demands the job may have on personal time. She says though work in investment banking can be all consuming, she likes working with smart people who want to make decisions quickly and produce the best work for clients.

She shares a passion for her work with the other women with whom she interacts in Goldman’s robust mentoring groups. “I was pleasantly surprised when I came here to see how important mentoring is, both formally and informally.”

She finds mentoring particularly helpful in addressing one of the main challenges she sees for women in the industry — the limited number of female role models at the higher levels. “If you haven’t seen a lot of women in senior positions, which I didn’t, you might feel pressured to mimic the few examples you do see instead of forging your own path, which can be challenging if that doesn’t match your personality,” Natauri said. “You have to figure out what success looks like for you, without having the benefit of a large number of role models.”

Natauri knows that success doesn’t come immediately, which also can be challenging when first starting your career. “When you’re young, you are promptly rewarded for good grades and hard work, and then you find when you enter the corporate world that it’s not as linear,” she says. “You have to have patience that your trajectory will take off.”

A Heart for Kids

Natauri spends much of her time away from work with her husband and their three children, ages four, two and one. She was also formerly on the board of a nonprofit organization called Everybody Wins, which she describes as a cross between literacy advocacy and Big Brothers/Big Sisters. The organization brings professionals to low-income schools to mentor and read to kids. “I’m a practical person at heart so I really appreciated its mission of getting busy people involved in an impactful way with the limited time they have available.”

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Mover and Shaker: Molly Tu, Thomson Reuters, Director of Business Planning and Operations

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Molly TuMolly Tu is a strong believer that you can get everything you want, but just not at the same time. For her, workwise, that means understanding that early in your career you might be able to go up like a rocket, but then at certain points you have to be more flexible and adapt your plan, constantly re-evaluating and re-defining what success is for you at any given moment.

Tu started her career working for two large professional firms in China but satisfied her desire to experience the world by coming to the United States to attend business school at Columbia. After graduation, she decided she wanted to turn her career path to the corporate side, and recognizing the potential in the information industry, she started with Thomson Reuters’ rotational program. There she experienced everything from M&A to investor relations to product management, ultimately deciding to join global account management, a division whose goal is to constantly assess how to deliver increased value to Thomson Reuters’ largest customers. There she spearheaded the Geneva Program, for which she received the 2014 Chairman’s Award.

And, less than a year ago, she was named to her current role, where she is tasked with rolling out the Geneva Program companywide.

“I have always viewed my experience here as similar to working in a startup, but still being part of a large company,” Tu says. “It is very satisfying to transform business processes and also help customers at the same time.”

“I have always viewed my experience here as similar to working in a startup, but still being part of a large company,”

Sponsors in the Workplace; Role Models Close to Home

Tu knows that sponsorship is key to corporate success. “As I grew in my career, my mentors and sponsors were the people who directed me to look at new things in different ways, and that vision got me to places I would not have otherwise.”

She’s often asked how to find a sponsor, but her experience is like many — professionals don’t seek out their own sponsor, but rather it happens in a more organic process that usually involves managers with whom you’ve worked or who otherwise are familiar with your work and want to champion the traits you offer that will allow you to succeed in increasingly responsible roles.

“At the end of the day, sponsorship comes from faith in you as a person, and there has to be an accumulation of experience to build that trust.”

In terms of role models, Tu found hers much closer to home — her grandma. Tu has always been inspired by how she puts her heart and soul into work about which she is highly passionate, including risking her life in the founding of new China. When she retired, she raised money on her own to preserve folk music in her area of China.

“Her passion and satisfaction remind me to always focus on what is meaningful,” Tu says, and that includes defining success by pursuing something you love. “Even if your life might appear to be successful in the eyes of those around you, deep in your heart you won’t be satisfied if you’re not doing something you love.”

She notes a famous quote by Confucius that sums up that philosophy. “Choose a job you love, and you won’t have to work a single day in your life.”

Different, Yet the Same

Throughout her working life, Tu has frequently found herself in environments quite different from where she came from, and that has led to many observations about adapting to these differences. But then she finds that she soon spies commonalties amidst the differences and has realized that people are fundamentally very similar.

“Seeing the commonality helps me address challenges with other people,” she says, adding that her work to reshape the company’s business practices would be unimaginable if she wasn’t able to find the similarities in cultures and genders.

Her company has a strong focus on diversity, including many programs for women. One in which she has been active is the Leadership Program for Women (LPW), which is a training program and forum where women across regions, functions and businesses form a community to bring in professional trainers twice a year. “There are unspoken business rules pertaining to women so this group finds professionals who really know the space and can share what’s happening and how we can maximize and leverage our positions.” She also helps plan events as part of Women at TR, which is designed to develop the talents and champion the contributions of female employees, thus promoting women as equal partners in the success, achievement, and profitability of Thomson Reuters.

“There are unspoken business rules pertaining to women so this group finds professionals who really know the space and can share what’s happening and how we can maximize and leverage our positions.”

One example related to the Geneva Project, where women volunteer to apply their specific skills to understand and better position different products for the company’s largest customers.

“Sometimes women tend to get tied up 100 percent with their current task and don’t always look at other opportunities. Being involved in these types of projects allow you to build your network, for example by having the chance to interview sales people and customers, to extract the information we need that will be useful to others.”

Juggling Work and Family

Away from the office, Tu focuses on her 16-month old daughter. She has found that balancing work and family responsibilities has helped her view her career in a more strategic way, knowing that there are times that you won’t be able to focus 100 percent on her career. However, it also drives women to become more effective and prioritize better; in short, to work smarter rather than harder.

“I feel lucky for the advice I’ve gotten, often as part of the women’s groups, on how you have to work with your partner to focus on balance.” As many senior women leaders have told her, they can only do what they do because they have a supportive spouse. She has realized that whether it’s work or family, more gets done when everyone works together.

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Career Tip of the Week

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networkingThis Week’s Tip Is…

Networking in a productive way

Have a think about the last 2-3 networking events that you attended and go back over your contacts from that meeting. Did you maximize those connections? If not, go back and make a few lunch or coffee dates or even send them an email framing an idea that could be mutually useful to you both.

Welcome to Career Tip of the Week. In this column we aim to provide you with a useful snippet of advice to carry with you all week as you navigate the day to day path in your career.

By Nicki Gilmour, Executive Coach and Organizational Psychologist

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Voice of Experience: Betty Ng, Senior Vice President, Corporate Development, Moody’s

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Betty NgFulfilling careers may evolve as a lattice rather than a ladder, believes Betty Ng, senior vice president for the corporate development team at Moody’s. “You have to be open to different opportunities while still being true to yourself. Your career success is often heavily attributed to the efforts of others, so in turn, I believe you have a responsibility to help others.”

Ng’s high school career vision was to pursue the field of international corporate law, which combined a variety of elements that interested her. Though she ultimately chose a different journey, she was able to create a career that still mirrored those interests through seeking challenging, fulfilling leadership roles at international firms.

After earning a B.A. in Economics with a focus on international relations from Stanford University, she began her career with Arthur Andersen in the San Francisco and Beijing offices. Though she earned her CPA license, she didn’t want to devote her career to accounting, so she attended Harvard Business School for an MBA to enhance her general management and leadership skills, and then worked at Amex managing product and international program office initiatives.

Career Success through Networking

In 2004, a friend referred her to Citigroup where her interview catapulted her into an M&A execution role. This was an early lesson in being open to any opportunity, since although she had never thought about a career in mergers and acquisitions, the hiring manager convinced her that she had all the skills and experience she needed to be successful, including finance, international business, leadership, project management and foreign language. In fact, Ng found it to be the perfect role to leverage her skills and interests.

After a brief hiatus to be with her children, a former colleague at Citigroup hired her into Moody’s where she is now a senior vice president for corporate development, leading M&A and other strategic initiatives.
This experience leads her to offer the advice to women toalways be at your best since you never know who’s watching you and when your paths will cross again.And that means that in addition to delivering great work products, you have to focus on building relationships and expanding your networks.

“You want to be the first person someone thinks of for that job or assignment that can help you advance your career,” Ng says. She believes a crucial element of that is executive presence, a skill she believes can be learned and developed. “Have an open mind about enhancements that can impact your personal brand and success,” she says.

“Paying it forward”

Diversity is very important to Ng, who appreciates that Moody’s has a wide variety of programs and initiatives to support a diverse workplace, from women to LGBTA to multiple cultures to veterans.

Ng devotes time to two important groups: she is co-chair of Moody’s Women’s Employee Resource Group in New York and is concurrently working with other Asian professionals to develop an initiative to further develop the Asian talent pipeline in the company.

Her focus as co-chair of the Women’s ERG is to deliver strong content in the areas of networking and professional development, which involves collaborating with her co-chair and subcommittees to develop programs that cover a spectrum from Lean In circles to fantasy football groups.

Ng also highlighted Moody’s leadership programs for women, including a Senior Women’s Leadership Forum, which she will participate in later this year, and other programs which help participants refine their skills and gain visibility across the company.

Ng is grateful that Moody’s sponsored her attendance at the Stanford Business School Advanced Leadership Program for Asian American Executives in 2013, which she describes as an incredible professional development experience that inspired her desire to focus on developing the pipeline of Asian talent at Moody’s. While the effort is still in its early stages, its goals are to reach out to Asian talent and help senior professionals impart their experience and “pay it forward” as role models. They have held a pilot speed mentoring program and look forward to other initiatives as the group grows.

She feels that it is important for organizations to raise awareness of unconscious biases and overcome leaders’ tendencies to hire and advance people who are more like themselves rather than gaining the benefits of a more diverse pool of candidates. “Also, a lack of role models can create a psychological barrier for women, who may feel that achieving higher ranks is too difficult.”

In fact, she cites her ability to meaningfully “pay it forward” by co-chairing these groups, while still performing well at her demanding position, as the professional achievement of which she’s most proud.
Family First

Ng credits much of her success to her mother, who has served as an impressive role model by balancing family with an impactful career. A widow at 32 with four young children, she has devoted decades of her life to her career as a social worker and was recently recognized as a pioneer by the Chinese American Planning Council (CPC) for her contributions to the community. Ng had the honor of speaking at the awards event.

Having benefited greatly from CPC’s programs, Ng sought and received a grant from Harvard Business School in 2001 that allowed her to establish a sustainable youth employment program for CPC. “It was an incredible experience to help impact the lives of underprivileged youth,” she says.

Ng treasures her time with her seven-year-old daughter and five-year-old son, particularly relishing morning drop-off time and evening reading time. “My goal is to focus on my job during the day and have real quality time focusing on them when I am home.”

By Cathie Ericsson

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Voice of Experience: Carol Nelson, Regional Sales Executive and Seattle Market President, KeyBank

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Carol NelsonFor Carol Nelson, it’s always been about banking. After earning a bachelor’s degree in finance and a master’s in business administration from Seattle University, she began her career at Seafirst, which later became Bank of America, and spent 24 years in positions of increasing responsibility in its commercial and retail divisions.

She left to become president and CEO of Cascade Bank, a community bank headquartered in nearby Everett, Wash., where she spent 10 years transforming it from a savings bank to a commercial bank, serving businesses as well as consumers. In fact, that is one of the professional achievements of which she is most proud. As she notes, changing culture can be challenging, and she found it extremely rewarding to make such a profound change and still be named the “No. 1 Medium-Size Business to Work For” by Washington CEO magazine in 2005. “That much change can be threatening, so the fact that we could also sustain and build morale was really meaningful.”

As Nelson has progressed throughout her career, she has learned the importance of building relationships. During the Cascade Bank transition, she learned that “if others in the organization understand and know you, they are more willing to accept your leadership and any changes you might need to introduce.” She also gained an appreciation for the power of process. “Giving participants the opportunity to buy in will increase the likelihood of success, whether it’s a single project or an overall company transformation.”

Nelson eventually orchestrated the sale of Cascade Bank to Opus Bank and, and following a period of transition, moved on to spend two years as agency director and CEO of the Department of Revenue for the State of Washington. “Having the chance to serve the public and give a portion of my life to public service was a tremendous opportunity, and I thoroughly enjoyed being a member of the Governor’s Executive Cabinet,” Nelson said.

Future of Banking is Bright

Banking called her back though, and she accepted her leadership role at KeyBank in January 2015. “I love being on a steep learning curve, and I am thrilled to have the opportunity to bring my passion for diversity and leadership here to KeyBank,” she said. “I feel very fortunate that I found a career that I’m excited about and have a passion for – some people don’t ever find that and I’ve had it from the start.”

Nelson notes that it’s an exciting time in the industry. People have long predicted the rise of a purely cashless society, or the demise of branch banking as technology advances. But that’s not what her bank is experiencing – she says that customers still want the mix of touch points and so she will continue to lead efforts to deliver a broad cross section of products that can meet the needs of virtually every business and consumer.

“I don’t see that we will ever be able to harness technology to give people the sound advice and financial solutions that bankers do,”

Nelson finds banking to be an ideal career for women, due to the breadth and depth of the financial sector. She encourages women who are interested in career growth to seek a broad range of experience in multiple lines of business.

An Environment of Inclusivity

Though the career is particularly welcoming to women at the entry level, she has seen that as they continue to move up, it becomes more challenging and very competitive. “There are some stereotypes and management styles that can get in the way, but women just need to be smart about how they navigate them.” She notes a strong culture of advancement potential at Key in particular – it is led by a woman and women comprise 36 percent of the leadership team.

Since coming to KeyBank, Nelson has been appreciative of the networking group structure the bank offers. Employees are encouraged to form smaller networking groups where shared interests and backgrounds reinforce employee engagement and a sense of belonging. Current groups bring together Asian Americans, African Americans, employees with disabilities and employees of military families.

There is also a robust Key4Women group that supports the advancement of business women of all levels through networking and professional development events. Nelson says the program got her attention long before she came to the bank because it served employees as well as clients. “Our bankers are passionate about making sure women business owners have access to capital,” she said, adding that since 2005, KeyBank has lent more than $6 billion to women-owned businesses.

Giving Back

Nelson encourages women who want to become leaders to develop their skills by being active in the community early on. “Helping a nonprofit translates into valuable work experience and great connections,” Nelson said.

Her philosophy of giving back has created a mentoring mindset. “I believe that women leaders need to help other emerging women leaders advance their careers in the community,” she says. “Whenever someone asks for some of my time, I try to make it work. Someone paid it forward for me, and I want to do the same for others.”

At the same time, she notes that all senior women have to make savvy use of their time. Which is one reason she is such a believer in volunteer work and its ability to accomplish simultaneous goals.

Nelson is active in the Washington Roundtable, which focuses on economic development. “I am passionate about contributing to a thriving economy. At the Roundtable, I’m networking with peers and serving a mission while being visible on behalf of the bank. Time is finite – I really believe you have to be laser focused with how you spend it.”

She also serves as a trustee to Seattle University, where she is a double alum, and says she is energized by visiting the campus and interacting with the students.

And in her off time she participates in CrossFit – she is a certified instructor and while she doesn’t currently teach, she exercises her right to fitness with thrice-weekly sessions.

By Cathie Ericson

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Movers & Shakers: Barbara Edwards, Counsel, Shearman & Sterling

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Barbara EdwardsBarbara Edwards has spent nearly the entirety of her career at global law firm Shearman & Sterling, where she is now counsel in the Finance Group, focusing on complex international and U.S. leveraged financings. The story of how she achieved this level of professional success is a remarkable one – from humble beginnings to Wall Street finance lawyer.

Originally from Guyana, Edwards was the first member of her family to emigrate to the U.S. She attended Brooklyn College, and when she started was a bit uncertain of her future plans. But all that changed when she experienced what could only be described as a political re-awakening while protesting the New York city-wide public university tuition hikes and participating in the anti-apartheid college movement. That got her thinking about a career in law and in particular, impact litigation. The rest, as they say, is history.

Except that the road to success was not easy. Prior to college, Edwards worked as a live-in nanny and housekeeper. This experience, she says, often goes uncited when discussing her path to becoming counsel, but the skills she acquired during this time have been incredibly helpful both professionally and personally.

“Working as a live-in reinforced the value of hard work and demanding hours, helping to hone skills of flexibility and adaptability to effectively navigate the needs of different constituencies. I believe these are all skills which underpin my success as a lawyer and in particular my strong client management skills,” Edwards said.

Giving & Receiving

Throughout her career at Shearman & Sterling, Edwards has been a mentor to a multitude of associates, a role which she considers very important. She takes pride and pleasure in helping others learn, grow, and progress in their careers. Many of these mentoring relationships have been informal and her biggest challenge, she says, has been ensuring that she’s striking the right balance of being professional mentor and coach, “therapist” and friend to her mentees.

“Investing in people makes my work so vibrant, but I have to be intentional in how I approach it. It’s important to make sure the help you provide is translating to both professional and personal growth,” she said. While Edwards doesn’t seek out recognition for the support she provides to colleagues and especially younger lawyers, she likes to tell the story about the time when a group of women she worked with, all from diverse backgrounds and religions, entered her office around Christmas to thank her for her time, guidance and the significant impact that she had on their work experience, giving her a gift card to designer shoe store Manolo Blahnik. It is a memory that will always resonate with her.

“I love shoes, but it wasn’t just about the shoes,” Edwards recalled. “It was a profound moment for me because I felt that my efforts had really made a meaningful difference to these women. There’s no replacing that feeling.”

Edwards has also given back on the pro bono side, working with women – often minority women – on initiatives related to economic empowerment. Most notably, she represented the women founders of Harlem Lanes, the first bowling alley in Harlem in 30 years and the only one in the country to be built and owned by Black women. The project was one of the William J. Clinton Foundation Urban Initiatives and the former president attended the ribbon-cutting.

Shearman & Sterling’s global platform and pro bono strength intersect nicely with Edwards’ passion for traveling the world. She spent two years in the firm’s Singapore and Hong Kong offices, working across Asia, as well as a secondment with one of the firm’s clients in Germany. Edwards is also one of the few counsel and partners at Shearman & Sterling who has participated in the firm’s work for the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR), a partnership that the firm has had for over 14 years. She traveled to Arusha, Tanzania for a one-month externship at the ICTR. It was an experience she says was life-changing.

“The ICTR work is not abstract. It has real, tangible outcomes and I’m proud to have been a part of it and to have made a useful contribution.”

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Voice of Experience: Sanja Udovicic, Partner in Project Finance Group, Shearman & Sterling

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Sanja UdovicicClient service and innovative deal making are what drive Sanja Udovicic, a partner in global law firm Shearman & Sterling’s project finance group in London. “My proudest professional achievements derive from successfully accomplishing my clients’ objectives and delivering their goals,” she says, particularly when working on what she describes as “complicated and interesting deals that haven’t been done before in frontier jurisdictions.”

Her recent and ongoing work, for example, includes advising multilateral lending institutions and commercial banks on the financing of an upstream gas project in Uzbekistan, counseling the government of Croatia on their tendering of a concession for the operation of the Croatian toll road network and advising lenders on a power project in Indonesia which won a number of awards for its innovative financing structure.

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Voice of Experience: Donna M. Parisi, Partner and Head of the Asset Management Group, Shearman & Sterling LLP

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Donna Parisi“People sometimes ask me, ‘If you could do it all over again, given your practice focus in the financial services area, would you be a banker as opposed to a lawyer?’ I would be a lawyer. This is a particularly exciting time to be a lawyer, with all the regulatory changes, and my clients rely on me to provide counsel and advice,” said Donna M. Parisi, Partner and Head of the Asset Management Group at global law firm Shearman & Sterling LLP.

Parisi’s practice deals globally with derivatives, structured products, securitization, capital markets and commodities, as well as regulatory, risk management, and compliance counseling. It is an area of great interest, and her advice is in high demand.

She explained, “My clients need help navigating complex regulations– especially in light of Dodd-Frank. We’re in a period of great change. There’s a lot happening out there.”

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Voice of Experience: Anna Chung, Counsel, Project Development & Finance, Shearman & Sterling

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Anna ChungTo Anna Chung, landing your “dream job” is not a question of whether you are female or male but rather of how good you are. As a Singapore-based senior lawyer at global law firm Shearman & Sterling, Chung has demonstrated the ability to shine on client work throughout Asia and, increasingly, around the world.

A project finance lawyer, Chung’s practice focuses on power, LNG, oil and gas, and petrochemicals projects. She began her career at a leading Australian firm but left after a few years for Shearman & Sterling.

“To be honest, my career was not particularly planned out, but I’ve been fortunate in having opportunities come my way,” she explains. “I knew I wanted life experiences in cities beyond the city where I grew up, and with Shearman & Sterling, I’ve been able to work in our London and Shanghai offices and am currently working out of our Singapore office.”

While she works on projects throughout Asia, Chung says it has been particularly meaningful to be one of the firm’s leading lawyers serving clients in Korea. She has been doing joint pitches, coordinating marketing trips to Seoul and preparing business plans as the firm expands its client base in Korea.

“It’s meaningful for me as Korea is where I am originally from,” Chung explains. “Our global project finance practice is quite an integrated one, and from fairly early on in my career, I’ve worked with senior partners from different offices on projects involving Korean financial institutions or corporates.”

She adds, “Korea is increasingly an important market for us with Korean financial institutions and corporates so active in the international project finance scene. We have been investing in our Korean relationships for some time now and it’s rewarding that as a firm and individually, we are getting significant market recognition.”

Loving Your Job

Chung has had two professional role models during her career to date – partners Bill McCormack at Shearman & Sterling and Michael Harrison at Minter Ellison. According to Chung, they are recognised experts in their fields but the real reason is that despite “the pressures and demands that come with such busy practices and management roles,” they manage to have a great sense of humor, treat every person with respect and be dedicated to their family.

Just like her role models, Chung finds humor in difficult situations. Throughout her career as a lawyer she has learned that little details, such as the correct date of an overseas pitch, do matter.

“Sometimes errors can work in your favor,” she explains. “One of my partners at Shearman & Sterling still teases me for getting the date wrong for an overseas pitch for a $1.2bn project. We arrived at the client’s offices a week early but still managed to win the pitch.”

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Voice of Experience: Eliza Swann, Partner, Shearman & Sterling

Eliza SwannEliza Swann, a partner at Shearman & Sterling, says that her interest in law and her interest in M&A developed in two wildly different ways: the first was a matter of design and the second was a matter of happenstance.

“I wanted to go to law school for as long as I can remember, but ending up on the M&A team at Shearman & Sterling was a bit of an accident. I had never considered a business transactional type of career,” Swann said.

It’s funny how things turn out. Swann, who became a partner at Shearman & Sterling in 2007 after eight years with the firm, works on domestic and cross-border deals. In recent years, she has worked on several of the highest-profile M&A transactions in the world, including last year’s acquisition by Liberty Global of Virgin Media in a $23.3 billion transaction.

As an associate just out of law school, Swann found herself on Shearman & Sterling’s M&A team, in large part because she had clerked for the Delaware Supreme Court. Because so many companies incorporate in Delaware (more than 60 percent of Fortune 500 companies are Delaware companies), it is a major venue for business law litigation, with a judiciary that is extremely sophisticated in reviewing corporate law issues. Swann’s clerkship gave her valuable insight into issues fundamental to a transactional practice.

“I was so lucky to have been offered the clerkship and accepted the position without realizing how truly interesting the work would be,” Swann said. “About halfway in, I decided that I wanted to work in a New York firm with a strong M&A practice. I got the job at Shearman & Sterling and have been interested every day since.”

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