Tag Archive for: empathetic listening

Louise Carroll: Partner, Real Estate, Katten

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Louise Carroll“People need to feel you’re hearing them and you’re answering truthfully on what you can deliver,” says Louise Carroll, who recently joined Katten as a partner in the Real Estate practice. “That skillset has served me in every situation — whether negotiating a deal, talking to politicians at the federal, state, and city level or calming passionate constituents.”

Carroll talks about her experience as former New York City Housing Preservation and Development (HPD) Commissioner, leveraging her differences, using her voice, and navigating the complexities of the law to find innovative win-win solutions that have helped deliver nearly a quarter-million affordable housing units in the city’s 59 community districts — one of the most expansive affordable housing plans in U.S. history.

Hands-On Career in Creating Affordable Housing

Born in the U.S. Virgin Islands and raised in Saint Lucia, Carroll attained her undergraduate degree in Wales, acquired her MBA in England and worked as a senior executive for a German ship-owning and brokerage company in Cyprus before entering Tulane University Law School. She began her legal career serving as a transactions attorney for the business law division of the New York City Administration for Children’s Services, followed by prosecuting public officials who violated New York City ethics laws, and advising on real estate projects and housing programs and policies, as well as drafting zoning and tax statutes. Over a 20-year public service career, she worked her way up to the General Counsel role and then became Commissioner of the largest municipal housing agency in the country.

At the time, Carroll had no idea how gratifying working with the affordable housing industry would be. She recalled the first time she went to speak to tenants in a supported housing residence in Times Square, in which HPD was a government partner on the building renovation. She saw how much the project affected and changed how the tenants felt more positively about their current life situation, and gave them not only a safe and affordable place to live, but also inspiration and hope at the potential of what might lie ahead in their lives.

“When I look at all those massive buildings on Riverside Drive, or Hudson Yards, all along the Greenpoint waterfront, I can say, ‘This is my building, this is my building, this is my building,’” says Carroll. “I have managed to put low-income tenants and families in some amazing buildings throughout the city, next to good schools and great access to transit. It took a great deal of work —drafting and revising legislation — to make these projects happen. This industry can be so complex, because there are so many different players and different laws, that just finding a way to do it over and over was both amazing and fun.”

Navigating Complex Win-Win Solutions

Carroll prides herself on her ability to listen to many sides, navigate diverse interests and find the best compromise or solution. “In good negotiating, you have to understand the viewpoint of the person across from you — what it is they’re trying to achieve. You have to listen and have empathy, and make sure people understand the parameters of where you can and can’t meet them and why,” she says.

Carroll met Katten partners Ken Lore and Martin Siroka when they were working together on many mixed-income housing developments. “I knew they were clever lawyers who were able to problem solve on really difficult issues, so I’ve respected them greatly over the years,” says Carroll, who herself joined Katten in March.

As Commissioner of the NYC HPD department, Carroll worked directly with Katten on real estate deals that had a combination of low-income housing tax credits, tax-exempt bonds, and other innovative financing structures, each with complex requirements and regulations. “What I loved was that every time I did a deal with Katten, we improved the status quo by making new changes that accommodated the private lenders in a better way. There are often cookie cutter deals in city government, but that was not the work we were doing together,” she says. “Instead, we tackled the intricacies of laws to figure out how to make them work best for every stakeholder involved in the project. Finding solutions to those incredibly complex problems was personally gratifying and provided housing to so many communities.”

When her public service career was winding down, she considered whether to work for a not-for-profit organization or take a post at a law school, but realized she wanted to continue working on impactful deals. “Some people could do the HPD commissioner role as a figurehead job, but that’s not how I did it. I read every piece of legislation. I was there for every policy draft and every brainstorm. I formed the working groups,” Carroll says. “I knew that finding a job that could compare was not going to be easy, but this role with Katten offered me the opportunity to work on affordable housing projects in the way that I love, and to contribute to the firm’s widely renowned practice.”

At Katten, Carroll’s practice focuses on affordable housing and community development, mixed-income housing, public finance and government relations. She is highly regarded at the firm for her experience and capabilities to guide clients through the financial and legal complexities of housing projects.

Leveraging Her Difference

“I went to an all-girls Catholic school, where the nuns told us we were as good as anybody. That’s, in part, why I’ve always spoken up,” says Carroll. “I understand the stereotypes or expectations when a woman is in the room — how we’re expected to speak, defend our work, or refrain from speaking in an authoritative way — and I’ve told myself, ‘None of that applies to you, because you weren’t born and raised in this culture, so you’re going to embrace the otherness.’ So, I speak up, respectfully and never rude, but I have to speak.”

Carroll leverages her experience and seniority to advocate for others. “When I see people not speaking up or being silenced or pushed out, I step into that space and say, no, I would like to hear what this person has to say,” she notes.

While Carroll was warned the commissioner position would be an outward-facing job, she couldn’t have prepared for just how much moment-to-moment adrenaline would be involved and how she would need to transition from a naturally shy person to an extrovert.

“As Commissioner, I was constantly on the move, interacting with many different people in sometimes challenging circumstances throughout the day. I might start the morning with a press conference, go to a 50-person meeting to solve problems around affordable housing, switch to working with my policy team on rewriting legislation, and then shift to being present for heated phone calls with city council members,” recalls Carroll. “I learned to put my game face on and step into the moment, whatever it was. Sometimes that meant winging an impromptu speech.”

No Task is Insignificant

Carroll credits her grandmother for inspiring her lawyer deal-making mentality of getting things done. Her grandmother instilled in her at a young age that no matter how big or small a task, you do it well.

“Everything you touch, you have to do the best you can — even when you’re not leading the team, and are just a part of the team,” says Carroll. “Before I became commissioner, I was the attorney that people could call at 11 p.m. and who would send the agreements back at 3 a.m. People started to talk about my work and every time I got a new challenge, even when they were difficult challenges, I would aim to make things better — and that kept me moving forward.”

A decade ago as a new mom with a rising legal career, she made it home from work for bedtime, and then started working again — knowing it was important to her advancement. “We all have adversity in some way,” says Carroll. “There are real issues, such as childcare. There are also times and places to address it, and how we handle our adversity is as important as the adversity we face.”

Married for nearly twenty years, Carroll has one 10-year-old son and enjoys watching him play travel ice hockey, a sport off her radar growing up as a Caribbean woman. Her sport of choice: tennis. She completes twice a week against tennis pros — and, sometimes, she wins.

By Aimee Hansen

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Great Listening Is Still A Two-Way Conversation

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With more of our interactions than ever happening in a virtual meeting room, are you truly listening? And if you are, at what level are you listening, as a leader?

Empathetic listening is an essential component of influential leadership—it fosters better connections, supportive relationships and increased commitment.

Not only does listening require a willingness to listen, but also understanding of both the spoken and unspoken messages, as well as active engagement with the speaker’s opinions and ideas.

If you’ve made a practice of simply not speaking while listening, or parroting back the speaker’s points, it’s time to redefine what good listening looks like.

Listening in a Zoom Office World

Previously, our multi-tasking technology was one of the distractions that made listening more difficult in the workplace. Now, technology has become the workplace itself.

As we conduct most of our group conversations online, we are more inclined than ever to zone out, whilst active listening is even more important to meeting cohesion.

According to Sarah Gershman in Harvard Business Review, President of Green Room Speakers, within a virtual meeting, we are especially subject to the “Ringelmann effect” – the bigger the group for a task, the less responsibility each person feels in making the effort a success and the less personal effort each exerts.

While this effect occurs in an in-person meeting too, the online office amplifies the tendencies to tune out and talk over each other. Whether leading the meeting, one of many participants or engaged in a one-on-one, your quality of listening still matters.

Strategies for doing your part in creating meeting cohesion include:

  • Before signing in, consider what value your participation holds for you and the group.
  • Reiterate previous points before introducing a new topic so others know they were heard.
  • Listen for and see themes raised by multiple speakers, asking reflective questions.
  • Note down peripheral thoughts that pop into your head, bring your attention back.
  • If you get distracted, acknowledge you lost the thread with a clarifying question.
Good Listening = A Conversation That Elevates

In Harvard Business Review, co-researchers Jack Zenger (CEO) and Joseph Folkman (President) of Zenger/Folkman, assert that good listening is not what most people think: simply not talking over others, making affirming facial expressions and sounds, and repeating back what was heard.

While it’s also not a ping-pong of contrasting viewpoints or oneupmanship stories, zipping your lips is not the golden standard of listening.

Rather, the researchers found that great listening experiences feel like an elevating conversation. The best listeners are more like “trampolines” than “sponges.”

“They are someone you can bounce ideas off of — and rather than absorbing your ideas and energy, they amplify, energize, and clarify your thinking,” writes Zenger and Folkman. “They make you feel better not merely passively absorbing, but by actively supporting. This lets you gain energy and height, just like someone jumping on a trampoline.”

Qualities of a Good Listening Experience

The researchers found these core components of good listening experiences.

Good Listening:

  • Becomes a dialogue: Exceptional listeners comprehend the speaker so well they can ask occasional constructive questions that carefully challenge assumptions that expand the conversation. So rather than being a one-way interaction, the listener enables the speaker to explore and share more.
  • Is supportive, permissive and builds self-esteem: Neither passive nor critical listening is enough. When a listener creates an environment that is safe for open discussion, regardless of the issue or differences, the speaker gains confidence and feels supported and positive about the experience of being heard.
  • Is cooperative, not competitive: In the best conversations, neither speaker nor listener becomes defensive as the conversation flows, even when assumptions are challenged. But if the listener highjacks the conversation to focus on making their own points or winning an argument rather than supporting exploration of the speaker’s viewpoints, the connection unravels.
  • Opens up the conversation with suggestions: While people often feel they aren’t listened to when the listener jumps to fix their problem through suggestions, the researchers also found that exceptional listeners do make suggestions—skillfully—- that “opened up alternative paths to consider.”
Leveling Up as a Listener

A good listener doesn’t have an agenda—instead, park your own needs, wants and self-concept. Mistake one can be to self-identify as a good listener. Instead, take ‘yourself’ out of the way.

You can skill up by asking yourself these questions, related to levels of listening, which may also lay the trust foundation for making suggestions:

  • Are you creating a safe environment to bring up complex and emotional discussions?
  • Are you clearing away distractions to help bring your focused attention to the conversation?
  • Are you seeking to understand the substance of what is shared, and clarifying with the speaker to confirm that you do?
  • Are you listening to the 80% of communication that comes from nonverbal cues such as posture, facial expressions, eyes, gestures, breathing, energy, tone? (even more challenging over a screen)
  • Are you grasping the emotions and feelings at play from the speaker’s perspective, and are you acknowledging without judging and validating them with empathy?
  • If doing all of the above, are you able to ask the questions that clarify assumptions and help the speaker to consider the topic in a way that is expansive?
Extra Tips From Listening Leaders

According to Enterprisers Project on being a better listener, CEO Chris Kachris of InAccel suggests to take a page from reflective parenting: “Don’t try to reject or beautify their concerns, their stress, and their worries. Don’t try to convince about your opinion without first understanding their worries.”

Dr. Bahiyyah Moon, president and chief data officer of Polis Institute, advises, “The most important rule of listening is the 3-1 ratio. Listen three times longer than you talk. The next rule is to ask more than you respond. Typically people have a comment after another person speaks. Great leaders follow up with questions.”

Ed Jaffe, founder of Demo Solutions, shares, “It is not just listening, it is trying to see the problem from the side of someone else, and understand why they are saying it. You do not have to validate the idea, but you must validate the person.”

“Listening is the key to asking the right questions” says Nicki Gilmour, the head coach of Evolved People Coaching and Founder of theglasshammer.com. “Tuning in to people requires hearing not just the content of what they are saying, but listening for the meta messages of what is really going on to help people identify what really matters.”

Ultimately, leveling up your listening can only create better connections, and enable you to become a more empathetic and expansive leader.

By Aimee Hansen 

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