Mikaylee O'Connor “One thing that’s at the core of how I operate is a focus on internal versus external gratification. I tend to go above and beyond for my own satisfaction because I have very high standards for myself,” says Mikaylee O’Connor. “Everyone’s way towards internal gratification is different, but I feel that when you do things for yourself, you exude different energy and attract more of what you want.”

Moving From Her Comfort Zone

Growing up in a small Oregon town, O’Connor was put on the Montessori track with an emphasis on independent thinking and hands-on learning. She then skipped middle school, while being home-schooled and spending her time in the stables, riding horses. She graduated high school at 17 and was off to Portland State University.

As a finance graduate, O’Connor joined a local investment consulting firm, RVK, as an investment analyst. She stayed for almost 13 years, working her way up while advising clients on pensions, 401k plans, and endowment foundations, to eventually becoming Head of Defined Contributions (DC). In 2020, she craved a new challenge.

“When you feel like you’re in your comfort zone, it’s the right time to maybe see about getting outside of that comfort zone. I wanted to do more strategic thinking, be a little more creative and be part of a movement to help the DC industry forward and find better solutions for everyday people,” she says.

In the start of 2021, she joined PGIM as a senior DC strategist and, this past February, she became a principal. O’Connor enjoys the ‘think tank’ atmosphere of her team: “We’re always asking, ‘What is the problem out in the market and how can PGIM and Prudential as a company come together to solve these problems and deliver solutions?’”

Embracing the New Challenge

“In my experience, the consulting world is very much for people who like to be constantly challenged,” she notes. “Every client project provides something new – new content, new research, new ways of presenting materials, or simply, adjusting to different personalities.”

O’Connor finds that everything depends upon how you approach those challenges: getting frustrated or seeing each as an invitation to grow. Receiving the support of mentors and advocates has been critical to rolling with new challenges. As she’s become senior, providing that same support to junior associates has been essential and rewarding.

She’s also learned to stay open to what she doesn’t yet know: “If you’re constantly trying to learn new things, you have to be humble to the fact that you don’t know everything,” she advises. “It’s important to surround yourself with different voices and perspectives so that when you’re trying to solve problems or provide solutions, you have that 360-degree view instead of looking only right in front of you.”

Opening to More Possibilities

O’Connor is known to give an unfiltered view of what she is thinking and play her own part in widening the conversation in any meeting.

“I push us to think differently or to have a different view on what we’re trying to solve. I often bring the end-user to the table,” she reflects. “Let’s put ourselves in the position of the person that’s going to be using this product or solution. How would they go about doing this or that?”

Despite being in a predominantly white male industry, O’Connor had the opportunity to work under a female CEO at RVK and with many female shareholders throughout her career. But when becoming involved in industry organizations, the gender skew became salient. Her approach to being underestimated by male peers was simple: “I would feel compassion for them because, at the end of the day, that’s their own challenge, not mine.”

But mostly, she has leveraged being a unique voice in the room to help her challenge the status quo.

“I’ve always been one to point out that just because we’ve done it this way in the past doesn’t mean we need to do it this way going forward. What are we missing? What should we be thinking about differently?” she says. “Having both that fresh perspective and high conviction about thinking about problems and solutions differently doesn’t always make people feel good. But I like a good debate and being uncomfortable talking about things, because we are only going to grow more through it.”

Adapting For Your Audience and Your Team Members

“Whether it’s your boss, client or a prospect, reading the room and adjusting how you approach the situation and your communication style matters to being effective,” says O’Connor.

Being able to adapt to and apply different ways of learning and communicating has been a powerful component in her ability to meet people where they are and create the momentum that drives results. Equally, sitting on the extrovert-introvert cusp, O’Connor highly values adapting her approach to hearing all voices in the room, including considering the different ways they may need to be heard.

“You have extroverts and introverts. You have people who need more time to think and you have people who can come up with ideas right on the spot in the meeting,” she says. “In order to capture all of the different great ideas, concerns and considerations, you have to consider how to make sure that you’re getting what you need from each of them, and that you make them all feel included.”

Reframing for Confidence

Shifting her mindset to increase her confidence has helped O’Connor to take on bigger roles.

“In the past, despite being overly prepared for a client meeting or discussion, I would still feel nervous,” she recalls. “But one mentor in particular assured me, again and again, that I knew more about the topic than anyone in that room. Over time, it shifted my perspective from being the ‘victim of scary stares and expectations’ to a ‘person with important information to share.’ I shifted to see that I’m going in there as a teacher.”

Now she loves to speak in front of an audience and does so often. Another learning curve has been around the challenge of leadership.

“I can be a perfectionist and always want to do things correctly, but when you’re in charge of people and emotions, that’s a different skillset and a different realm of understanding how to deal with things,” she says. “It takes a lot of listening and stepping back to ask how you can best support each of these individuals. Ultimately, their success is also my success.”

She’s also learned to always ask for feedback and to create an environment where people feel comfortable giving it.

Meanwhile, O’Connor has recently been unlearning multi-tasking as a leader: “I’ve been working on mindfulness and there’s a huge benefit to focusing your attention on one thing at a time. I’m much more active and creative when I get rid of distractions.”

Focusing on Internal Gratification

“By focusing on internal gratification, I’ve naturally been given more opportunities without necessarily focusing on what I have to do to get to the next step or to get promoted, because those are external focuses,” she notes. “By doing what I want to do – to grow and to learn and to do it for myself – I’ve just had those opportunities come to me.”

For years, O’Connor has been doing a self-review after meetings to consider whether she could have done anything better or differently. While it can be exhausting, it helps her grow and creates internal gratification.

“I would encourage women to focus internally and not worry so much about external steps and getting to the next one,” she says, “because then you’re doing the work for someone else instead of yourself.”

Being Human, First

O’Connor appreciates how PGIM Quantitative Solutions CEO Linda Gibson shows strength in her role and humanness in her communications.

“Linda has brought a sense of ‘we’re all just people.’ We’re all trying to do the same thing and nobody needs to be on a pedestal,” she says. “She can talk to you in the office just like anybody. It’s refreshing.”

O’Connor observes that since the pandemic and remote offices, more people are breaking down barriers and hierarchy, while seeing everyone as individuals and not just as employees.

“If we want to bring out the best in ourselves, we also have to show that we’re all humans and we all have things going on,” she says. “We can normalize that. But also, how do we take that change and use it to create a more cohesive and better company? Our relationships can be stronger because I can relate to you on something I didn’t know before.”

Speaking of which, O’Connor finds travel to be good for the soul, and enjoys seeking out AirBnBs and boutique stays with her husband while getting out of their comfort zones and taking in the cultures wherever they are exploring, most recently the Swedish Lapland in the forests of the Arctic circle, with saunas and cold plunges. Iceland is another favorite. Closer to home, she likes scouting out new atmospheric spots for a great meal in New York.

By Aimee Hansen

Neutral ThinkingName one person who enjoys having hard conversations, and you’ll likely come up null. In the workforce, complex decision-making and delivering bad news are enough to make your stomach drop. However, hard conversations are sometimes necessary — they could entail asking for a raise, apologizing after making a mistake or losing your cool and providing constructive criticism.

Corporate leaders and professionals face difficult decisions and conversations daily. The key is to check their emotions and express themselves in a way that remains neutral and makes them proud.

Why Are Hard Conversations and Decisions Challenging?

There are a few reasons many managers avoid hard conversations and decisions:

  • Guilt
  • Increased anxiety
  • Adverse reactions from both parties
  • Threats and retaliation
  • Potential conflict or disagreement

Leadership may be known for avoiding talking to employees about hard topics, whether it’s firing someone, demoting them, issuing blame, addressing low productivity or resolving office conflicts. In fact, more companies are ditching the nail-biting year-end reviews for regular touchpoints focusing on goal-setting and open dialogue just to temper negative emotions.

Yet, despite the possibility of all these behavioral outcomes, 54% of leaders have indicated that conflictual discussions spark team engagement and uncover potential growth areas. However, they must engage employees with respect, transparency and prime leadership skills to avoid damaging outcomes.

Gender differences in communication styles significantly impact reactions. Women typically approach conversations with compassion and rapport, while men often lean into facts and problem-solving. Regardless of one’s method, learning to strike a balance is crucial.

6 Strategies for Having Hard Conversations

Your approach to difficult discussions with people can make or break spirits and significantly impact workplace morale. A 2019 Gallup survey found that a mere 10.4% of employees remained engaged at work following negative feedback — another four out of five sought other employment.

Fortunately, honing in on your leadership skills and aiming for neutrality is the best way to decide on and deliver bad news. Here are six strategies that will help you master hard conversations.

1. Create a Planned Approach

Develop a list of bullet points you want to discuss during your meeting. Having the most essential topics in front of you will keep you on track. Just be sure not to write out a script, as conversations rarely go the way you’ve planned.

A well-thought-out approach to challenging discussions with employees or co-workers ensures greater authenticity and a free-flowing discourse.

2. Practice Empathy

Emotional contagion is an alignment of emotions — if a person smiles at someone, they’ll most likely trigger a smile in return. When approaching difficult conversations, empathy goes a long way. The receiver of bad news will take cues from facial expressions, prompting a particular reaction. Likewise, a response may stem from the voice or tone used during indirect communication, such as online or on the phone.

Research suggests that women have an easier time with emotional contagion than men. One study even found that female babies cried for longer when they heard another crying.

However, empathy doesn’t come easily to everyone — some people need to practice it. Demonstrating emotional contagion, whether through facial cues or tone, will help regulate the receiver’s reactions and result in positive communication.

3. Listen and Observe

An effective leader engages in active listening and open communication to reach a solution. That means you should focus more on the other person’s words during conversations.

These one-on-one meetings don’t need to feel like an attack. Ask open-ended questions and allow employees to share their take on a situation. For instance, if someone struggles to meet deadlines, have them explain their challenges, then repeat what they shared to show you understand — “To be clear, you’re saying that knowledge gaps require more time to go over directions than doing the actual work.”

The attention and respect you offer by listening to your employees may result in a more favorable outcome than you initially thought, such as providing additional training. It may also be that they’ve taken on more responsibility than one person can handle, which leaders can step in and help delegate.

4. Face the Hard Stuff Head-On

Some decisions and conversations may be uncomfortable, but being direct often results in more profound respect and better workplace relationships. Nothing will ever get done if you constantly avoid potential conflicts and avoidance could worsen personality clashes and negative behaviors.

People who avoid hard conversations might purposefully overlook problems, joke their way through confrontations, change the topic or bottle up their emotions until they explode. Many put off having conversations indefinitely.

A more direct approach — even if it’s something positive like negotiating a raise or promotion — should encourage back-and-forth communication — this style comes across as less threatening to both parties. It might also be best to give the receiver some times to cool down and reflect on the discussion before continuing.

5. Avoid Absorbing Negative Emotions

While an effective leader should have empathetic tendencies, injecting too much empathy into hard conversations could lead to you absorbing negative feelings — also known as emotional contagion.

It’s crucial to create separation between what you need to get across and how the person responds. You can expect pushback in some instances or meltdowns, but protecting yourself is essential.

Imagine putting up a shield to block negativity or envision yourself wearing armor — this helps build up your resilience to say what you need. The key to emotional neutrality is to stay grounded. Of course, if a hard conversation ends badly, withdrawing to a quiet place will help you regroup and regain composure.

6. Stay Positive

It’s easy to anticipate discourse going array and for someone to fly off the handle. However, not all hard conversations end badly, and addressing complicated topics can have several benefits. When you approach these discussions positively, they’re more likely to be constructive than disastrous.

Hard conversations done correctly could result in an employee that strives harder to meet deadlines, boosts productivity and collaboration, feels more engaged and better aligns themselves with the company’s mission. It could also improve employee attitudes and reduce conflict.

Complex decision-making and conversations will become second nature in time because you’ll expect positive changes and relationships.

Stay Neutral for More Positive Interactions

It’s possible that you’ll never particularly enjoy giving negative feedback and criticism. You may especially dislike letting someone go or engaging in uncomfortable discourse about diversity and inclusion. But as you’re aware, these conversations are crucial and may present the best outcome for the company.

Mia Barnes is a freelance writer and researcher who specializes in mental wellbeing and workplace wellness. Mia is also the Founder and Editor-in-Chief of Body+Mind magazine, an online women’s health publication.

(The opinions and views of guest contributions are not necessarily those of theglasshammer.com).

“It’s about making connections at a deeper level and not just transactional or at the business level. We really are on this journey together,” says Tiara Henderson. “So many of our new and existing clients are excited to know that there is a group that is solely focused on engaging and retaining diverse-led and diverse-owned firms while delivering the entire spectrum of Wells Fargo products and services.”

Diversifying The Advantage of Financing

As a psychology major at Davidson College, Henderson recalls, “What we learned in liberal arts was to think critically and the rest will fall in place. That skill is of paramount importance in every job or career, no matter the industry.”

During her senior year, Henderson interned for a developer, her doorway into commercial real estate and development, which led to her early career path, which included working for affordable property development (Hope VI) to mixed-income property development to Commercial Mortgage-Backed Securities (CMBS). She joined Wells Fargo ten years ago, originally in the Commercial Mortgage Loan and Securities Finance group which provides credit facilities to non-bank commercial real estate lenders.

Advancing to her current role in August 2021, Henderson wears many hats as both Head of Women’s Segment for Corporate & Investment Banking (CIB) and Head of Diverse Segments for Commercial Real Estate (CRE). Her two roles have one mission: identifying, engaging and retaining more diverse bank clients.

“What drew me to this role was the opportunity to create something new while having an impact on women and other diverse owned and led firms. It’s the chance for me to bring them to the table and watch their platforms grow as we surround them with support, resources, and access, and not just access to capital, but access to information, people and ideas.”

She iterates that it’s not only her passion, but a Wells Fargo priority.

“Having the support of the leadership at Wells Fargo in the work that we do has been tremendous – necessary, but also tremendous,” says Henderson. “There is a positive spotlight on our group at all times and when people speak of Diverse Segments as an ‘initiative,’ senior leaders will quickly step in and say, ‘no, this is part of the fabric.’”

Building Relationships with Diverse Owners

Henderson spends her days finding and engaging with new clients, deepening relationships with existing clients and re-engaging previous clients – including outreach through panels, conferences and events. Her group, (led by Danielle Squires – Head of Diverse Segments, CIB) is set up to foster close collaboration with her banking and markets diverse segments partners to meet the multi-functional needs of a given customer. She says her people-oriented personality is core: really listening to what clients are looking for and what their needs are and making the right introductions for them.

“Because of our differentiated approach to client management, we are able to engage and have an immediate connection with clients,” she says.

Henderson’s team creates events that bring in a wide array of clients from smaller and larger diverse-owned firms. While she loves to golf, for example, some of her clients might not be drawn to such a traditional networking event. So, when her team put on the Women’s Leadership Summer last October, they tailored it to their audience.

“It’s hard to get people out of the office for three days to travel, especially when we’re talking about CEOs and women in the C-Suite,” she said. “We were hoping to get 50 or 60 people, but we had 90 women enrolled, because this was an event created and curated for women, and it resonated.”

She adds the biggest feedback she received from the women’s leadership conference was it should be longer and no suits or heels – only yoga clothes allowed. Wells Fargo is no stranger to hosting events that celebrate diversity. For example, Wells Fargo sponsors the Spoleto Festival, and last spring, her clients (some with their families) traveled to Charleston for Memorial Day weekend and the world premiere of the opera, “Omar” – based on the autobiography, translated from Arabic, of West African Muslim scholar, Omar ibn Said, who was enslaved in the Carolinas, after being captured at the age of 37. The opera was composed by Grammy-winning artist, Rhiannon Giddens.

“These events reach our clients on a deeper level and it’s why they are so successful,” says Henderson. “We are connecting in a more meaningful way, and they appreciate and enjoy engaging with Wells Fargo.”

If You See Her, You Can Be Her

Henderson can be trusted to bring candor, connection, and industry knowledge to the table. Being regularly in the room with top senior leaders to witness firsthand how strategies and ideas can be pulled apart has leveled up her own strategic thinking – for example how to engage with women or build up the CRE diverse segments platform.

“Keeping that leadership lens and the lens of ‘who is my audience’ at all times is a skill that I’ve had to sharpen and will continue to hone as we evolve our strategic priorities and throughout the implementation of our strategic plan,” she says.

As a woman of color in the banking industry, Henderson comments, “I’m competitive and I like a good challenge. If someone says ‘it can’t be done,’ well that is probably the best motivator for me.”

Recently, she wrote an internal piece: “If you can see her, you can be her” – highlighting the importance of having diverse leaders who blaze the trail since it encourages others to envision themselves as future leaders too. She notes that it has traditionally been harder to find diverse representation in banking, and cites seeing more diverse representation on the Wells Fargo CIB operating committee (eg. Kara McShane, head of CRE, the largest real estate platform in the country and her own boss, Danielle Squires), as a sign of measurable change.

“That motivates different people to envision a career in banking, because now they see the path to leadership,” says Henderson. “That can change the mosaic of our future leadership.”

But she admits she’s catching up to seeing herself as that person who others will aspire to be: “Many women in leadership roles still don’t give themselves enough credit that we are, indeed, leaders. We feel like we never get ‘there’,” she observes. “The first time someone reached out to ask for time on my calendar, I had to take a step back and realize I have gone through this 25+ year career path and people are interested in connecting with me as a leader. But I also know it’s a two-way street. There is always something we can learn from each other, no matter what your level is within an organization.”

A Personal Board of Directors and Ownership

Through experience, Henderson has observed the leadership traits she seeks to emulate, as well as those she doesn’t. She prefers the calm, confident, strategic thinker as a leadership approach, which she identifies with. One suggestion she received from a mentor was to have a personal board of directors, people who you trust and can consult for advice.

“I want the disruptor. Somebody who is always thinking of the antithesis and they’re not going to give you the answer you want to hear. They’re going to shoot it to you straight and play devil’s advocate. I also want the people who have lots of lived experience and are highly competent, who can provide the guidance that helps you stay grounded in the decisions that you make,” she says. “Also, for me, having a spiritual person is important because that helps you stay centered. Depending on what I’m contemplating, I may also need someone industry specific. Your personal board can help shape goals and strategies.”

Henderson advises her mentees to be their own best advocate and take control of their career, because no one else is going to do that for them. In her view, this has become more important versus 20 years ago in Corporate America, when people-focused middle managers would meet to talk about career paths. Now, she notes, managers tend to be product-specific experts over a product group, but that doesn’t always mean they are experts at managing people.

“I think, because of that, the onus is now on each individual employee to think through their career, their path and trajectory and bring that to their manager, whereas in the past it was more of a team effort,” she observes. “I have had some great managers who I would absolutely invite to my board of directors.”

Networking – Whether It Comes Naturally Or Not

“Networking comes naturally to some people and for others, it doesn’t. The first step is to understand which bucket you’re in,” she advises. “If you are a natural networker, find as many chances as you can to put that to use because it’s only going to be to your benefit. If you are not a good networker, you need to recognize that, number one, and focus on growing that skill.”

She points out various ways to do this for those it doesn’t come naturally to. Perhaps its networking with people in your industry, where you have more confidence. Then, perhaps expand to network with people in banking, covering different industries. But find your niche and focus on growing the skill from there.

Henderson considers herself somewhere in the middle. But she’s learned networking hacks: “If there’s an event that evening, I try to reserve some energy so that I am prepared and charged for the networking that will come into play.”

She also knows that she must be mentally prepared if the networking involves working her way around a room of 500+ people, but she’s noticed an exception to that rule: “What I’ve found is that if I speak on a panel or I’m introduced as a sponsor, I am very comfortable tearing through the room and meeting everyone afterwards,” she notes. “I can take it from there!”

A Personal Board of Supporters

One hard truth that Henderson has learned to accept is that not everyone has a vested interest in your success: “Some people are not going to be a cheerleader,” she says. But focus on the bright spots. Along with a board of directors, you also need a board of supporters and hopefully they are one in the same. Once you have shaped your strategy and goals, you need those people who are going to continue to support you and push you forward.”

As a wife and mother of a 14-year-old daughter and 11-year-old son, she’s very focused on her children’s school activities and sports. Her daughter is a “retired” competitive gymnast turned tennis player, while her son excels in any sport that ends in the word “ball” and lacrosse. He’s following in his dad’s footsteps. His dad is in the Davidson College Football Hall of Fame and, interestingly enough, also has had a long career in commercial real estate. Henderson loves going to the beach, playing golf, and sharing moments with friends and family.

leadership skills on your resumeStrong leadership skills are a hot commodity — adept leaders make things happen, promote and enhance a company’s vision, and elevate the performance of everyone they work with. Emphasizing your leadership abilities on your resume can help potential employers see the value you’d bring to their enterprise, and ultimately, make you a more attractive candidate.

A slick, well-organized resume is the first step to upping your profile as a leader, so choose a fresh template, and get ready to dive into the content.

Job searching can be draining, trying to get one of the highest paying jobs or even getting that interview, but you may be missing out on opportunities to craft each section of your resume so it reflects essential leadership skills, making it stand out among a sea of applications from similarly-experienced candidates.

Emphasizing crucial skills such as making tough decisions under pressure, guiding colleagues, or coming up with innovative ideas that shape the direction of projects can help propel your resume to the top of a company’s interview list. Below, we’ll go through 5 great ways to highlight leadership on your resume for maximum impact.

1. Include examples of coaching and mentorship

Experience in coaching or mentoring can make you more attractive to hiring managers because it shows your ability to enhance the performance of those around you.

As a starting point, note whether the job description uses specific mentorship-related keywords, such as ‘guide’ or ‘support.’ Mirroring the job description by incorporating these keywords into your resume summary or experience bullet points is a great move because it shows you have the exact skills they’re looking for and optimizes your resume for ATS software.

Then, add a few specific examples of coaching that demonstrate the impact of your mentorship. If you have metrics displaying results such as reduced employee turnover or improved employee satisfaction, now’s the time to mention them.

You can also outline positive outcomes for individuals to demonstrate your impact, such as your mentee receiving a promotion or meeting more KPIs.

2. Highlight the outcome of your projects or teams

Including measurable outcomes in your resume shows hiring managers that you don’t just lead — you lead effectively. Potential employers want to gauge the impact of your leadership on your company’s performance, so backing up your experience with hard data can help employers visualize your impact.

Examples of metrics to include in the experience or achievements sections of your resume include:

  • Increases in revenue, profit, or sales
  • Measurable improvements in team productivity
  • Enhanced employee or client satisfaction ratings
  • Improved employee retention
  • Time or resources saved as a result of streamlined workflows or processes

Even if you don’t have much hard data to work with, you can still use the examples above to guide you in making your resume’s experience section more results-focused so hiring managers can see your successes, not just your experiences.

3. Emphasize effective collaboration

A recent report on HR statistics found that effective teamwork and communication are two of the biggest skill gaps applicants struggle to match. While this applies to any role, effective collaboration is an especially appealing quality in a leader because it’s vital to ensuring team unity, performance, and productivity.

Managers must be able to delegate tasks effectively to ensure roles are clear and prevent workflow bottlenecks. If you have a good example of how your communication skills have improved your team’s ability to collaborate effectively, be sure to include it in the experience section of your resume.

Describe positive results after giving constructive feedback so potential employers can envision how you’ll ensure your colleagues’ growth and development. It could also be worth giving an example of how you’ve acted on feedback you received to demonstrate your ability to reflect and adapt.

4. Show you can lead a team or project remotely

According to McKinsey’s American Opportunity Survey, over half of American workers are working remotely for at least part of the week. Remote leadership skills are in high demand as companies support their employees in maintaining a healthy work-life balance and ensure deliverables are met by a scattered workforce.

Demonstrating remote work skills and experience shows hiring managers you can help their company overcome these hurdles, particularly if you have experience managing a team or project in a remote setting. Even online part-time jobs like a virtual assistant or copywriter help you develop necessary skills to lead remotely.

Describe any strategies you’ve successfully employed to manage issues such as scheduling, employee development, or task management in your experience bullet points and include any quantifiable positive impacts.

5. Demonstrate your problem-solving skills

Problem-solving skills are an essential part of any successful leader’s toolkit because they allow you to identify and troubleshoot issues early, from less significant snags causing inefficiency to major problems threatening entire projects.

Providing examples of changes you’ve made to address a problem and their positive impact offers employers a clearer idea of your abilities than simply listing ‘problem-solving’ in your resume’s skills section. For example, you could add a bullet to your experience section outlining how you streamlined a key process and what difference it made to your team’s time management or productivity.

If you’re unsure where to start, abilities such as organization, effective planning, and critical analysis are strong examples of skills necessary for problem-solving and risk management.

Key Takeaway

Creating a leadership-focused resume involves more than simply listing your experience as a manager. Providing examples of how you applied leadership skills, adding performance metrics to experience bullet points, and enhancing your resume summary and skills section with the right keywords can help you communicate your career story more effectively and paint a compelling picture for potential employers.

By: Emily Crowley is a Senior Content Writer and Resume Expert at Resume Genius, where she loves helping job seekers overcome obstacles and advance their careers. She graduated from George Mason University with a degree in Foreign Language and Culture.

(The opinions and views of guest contributions are not necessarily those of theglasshammer.com).

Reshma Saujani“I realized I’m never going to finish the fight for gender equality for my girls if I don’t finish the fight for their moms. That’s what led me to step down as CEO of Girls Who Code and start Moms First, which I had never intended to do,” says Reshma Saujani. “The reality is that the pandemic played a huge hand in that. But what was happening for women in the pandemic wasn’t going to start and end with the pandemic.”

We interviewed Reshma Saujani, founder of Girls Who Code, the non-profit organization launched in 2011 with the mission to close the gender gap in tech. For over ten years, she served as CEO, leading to change the face of programming as we know it. At the end of 2020, and spurred by witnessing the impacts of the pandemic on women’s lives, Saujani also became Founder and CEO of Moms First (formerly Marshall Plan for Moms).

Through Moms First, she is leading the campaign to transform our workplaces, our culture and our government to enable moms to thrive. Her fourth book, Pay Up: The Future of Women and Work (and Why It’s Different Than You Think) proposes clear and necessary structural and cultural changes to support women in the workplace, and puts a halt on telling women to change.

Saujani was a recent keynote ‘fireside chat’ speaker for the 2023 Catalyst Awards Conference, the premier gender equity conference for advocates of diversity, equity and inclusion. With the conference themed Accelerating Equity on All Fronts—So Women Thrive, Saujani emphasized the need to drastically change the discussion around women and the workplace. She also iterated key actions that policy makers and organizations need to take, such as family-friendly policies, paid leave, and childcare to support equity, engagement, retention and advancement among women.

Saujani spoke to us about how changing the workplace to work for women – as Catalyst has researched, advocated and reimagined for over 60 years – is really not a women’s problem.

On women in the workplace:

“At the conference, I spoke about the core shifts that need to happen in the workplace to support women in leadership. The idea of supporting women in their roles as mothers is really new for Corporate America. It’s a different conversation than the one we’ve been having, because the conversation we’ve been having is really what I call the ‘big lie of corporate feminism’: that if we just raise our hand, if we lean in a little harder, then we can ‘girlboss’ our way to the top. But that leaves out the fact that two-thirds of the caregiving work is being done by women, and that women come to work already doing two and a half jobs. So this idea of ‘having it all’ is just a euphemism for ‘doing it all.’

We have to stop trying to fix women and fix the system. We need to accept the fact that workplaces have never been built for moms, so let’s redesign them for moms now. In my book, Pay Up, I lay out some strategies that companies can actually do to support working moms.

One, it begins with supporting moms with childcare. Childcare in this country is unaffordable and unavailable. 40% of parents have gone into debt because of the cost of childcare. The reality is that childcare isn’t a personal problem that you or I have to solve. It’s an economic issue. Women cannot work without childcare. So companies, for the first time, really need to step up and start providing childcare benefits – whether that’s a subsidy or back-up care. They have to start providing that support.

The second thing is paid leave. Many companies still don’t have gender-neutral paid leave policy. In a heteronormative relationship, whether a man takes paternity leave has huge consequences for women. The more men, quite frankly, that are taking paid leave, the better for the equity in a family. Right now, the vast majority of men take fewer than ten days off after having a child. So companies need to not only offer gender-neutral paid leave policy but also incentivize or mandate it.

The third thing is the motherhood penalty. The mom bias is contributing to a huge pay gap between mothers and fathers. Studies have shown that men earn 6% more when they become a dad whereas women earn 4% less when they become a mom.”

On her shift from Girls Who Code to Moms First:

“During the pandemic, I had a new ‘pandemic’ baby and I was homeschooling my six-year-old. My entire leadership team were working moms with young children, and we were barely making it. I saw so many of my students had to stay at home and take care of their siblings, instead of going on to major in computer science at college, because their mothers were essential workers. The fact that we had a broken structure of childcare in our country was continuing the generational cycle of poverty.

Moms have really been in crisis for decades – even the fact that the United States is the only industrialized nation that doesn’t have paid family and medical leave. The fact that we’ve never made childcare affordable or available for moms. The fact that we’ve always paid mothers less than we pay fathers for doing the same exact work. If we didn’t actually solve those three things, what’s the point of even telling girls to go to college? What’s the point of even telling them they can be everything or anything when we’re just again perpetuating them in this cycle of oppression and inequality?

So I stepped down from Girls Who Code, and I’ve built Moms First, over the past year and a half, up to a grassroots movement of over half a million moms and supporters. We’re fighting for three things: childcare, paid leave, and equal pay. And it’s not just about a single piece of legislation or a workplace policy or about getting equal pay. It’s all three. They’re all interconnected.”

On the broken narrative of success:

“I think the big lie is essentially that if we only fix women, we can have equality. So again, what we keep telling women is that if you just raised your hand, if you just leaned in harder, if you just ‘girlbossed’ your way to the top… Just think about the whole conversation about equal pay. What we tell women, usually, is you’re just not negotiating well enough.

But that’s going one woman at a time rather than saying the entire structure of how we compensate women is wrong, and we actually have to build an algorithm or audit our pay policies. Those are the structural changes that we have to make instead of telling women, ‘The problem is you. You just didn’t negotiate for yourself.’

Everything around ‘the big lie’ is about making women feel like they’re the problem. They’re not the problem. The structure is the problem. Workplaces are the problem. And, even basic things like workdays are 9:00 am to 5:00 pm and school days are 8:30 am to 3:00 pm. We’re just setting women up to fail by having these structures in place that are leading to us, again, never being able to truly succeed. We’re not set up to succeed. We’ve never been set up to succeed.”

On how the future of women and work will be different than we think:

“Why it’s different than you think is that I’m not going to tell you how to fix yourself. I’m not going to tell you, yet again, how to just get a mentor, get a sponsor, or learn how to negotiate.

I’m going to walk you through the history of how workplaces have never been set up for women. And I’m going to give you strategies that are radically different than the strategies that you’ve been given. The vast majority of women that participate in an ERG are not taught how to ask for childcare. They’re not taught how to take your paid leave and not feel guilty about it. They’re taught how to learn another skillset. Get a sponsor. Be more confident.

But when you do those things, and you still feel like you’re barely making it again, you think something is wrong with you. No. Something is actually wrong with the system as it’s been set up.”

On the cultural change necessary to begin to support working moms:

“We do not value what we do not aspire to be. And being a mom, in America, is often times not something so many people aspire to be. Because, too often, motherhood in America is not seen as something that is respected and valued and dignified. Consider even the fact that we have countless school shootings and every day mothers, like me, have to drop off our children at school and not know if we’re going to see them again. That we continue to allow that to happen in this country just shows the lack of value and respect we have for the role of mothers and for our children.

So, to me, that’s cultural. Culturally, we have to become a society that says, we need to support mothers and we need to support children. Well, that means that one in four women should not have to go back to work less than two weeks after having a baby when they’re wearing an adult diaper. That means that we shouldn’t have daycare that’s not safe or that’s not affordable. We shouldn’t have parents piecing it together because, as a society, we want people to have children. Innovation dies in a nation when you have a declining birth rate, and, right now in the United States, we have a declining birth rate.”

On what women can do:

“I think that we have to fight. I think that we need to ask for what we need. I think we need to stop apologizing. I think we need to not think something is wrong with us and instead see the system as broken and demand for it to change. Right now, we’re in the middle of doing a Moms First Challenge. I joke that when we went on godaddy.com to get the URL for Moms First, it was available, because the idea of putting yourself first is very radical.

So, how do you teach that? In the first week of our challenge, we did that by having women write down all of the tasks of unpaid labor that you do. This week, we said to do something for yourself. In my case, I’ve had a horrible stomach virus where I need to be on a pretty extensive set of antibiotics, and I put it off for four years because it was never the right time. This week, I’m doing it. I’m canceling my week if I don’t feel well, and the world will be okay. So many women put off their doctors appointments and the things they need to do for themselves because we don’t live in a society that allows us to put ourselves first. We’ve been conditioned to think that that’s selfish.

Also, statistically, a lot of women will quit rather than saying ‘I can’t get on a call at 6 p.m. because that’s dinner time for my family.’ Or ‘I’m not going to travel three days a week because I have a young child.’ But they would rather quit than say, ‘hey, this is what I need.’”

On the impact she wishes for it all to add up to:

“I want to finish the fight for gender equality. And I will tell you that the most ambitious thing I’ve ever done is Moms First. It is so hard. It’s so hard and a lot of people have tried and have been trying.

But I cannot tell you how much, I believe that this – childcare, pay equity, paid leave – is central to women’s equality. I literally say, ‘why am I even bothering to tell my students to get educated when they’re going to get into the workforce and just get pushed out the minute they choose to become a mother?’

At the same time, getting these changes in place is not rocket science. So, it’s ironic. It’s not climate change, but it is climate change. It’s not as hard to move and shift behavior. It’s a policy change, but it’s so challenging for this country to move along and say, ‘yes, we must do this.’”

On the necessary cultural pivot:

“We’ve been indoctrinated to think that women are the problem or even men are the problem. Men are not even part of this conversation. They’re not the ones standing in the way of us getting our benefits or getting these support mechanisms. It’s a cultural change that we have to make. It’s the shift to seeing that childcare is an economic issue, not a personal issue – that in and of itself. If we started to say that childcare is not a personal problem that we have to solve. It is literally an economic issue that the country has to fix. If you made that one change, it would move mountains in terms of women’s economic freedom.

I think we have to decide, though, are women in the workforce a nice to have or a must-have? Nearly 60% of Americans still believe that one parent should stay at home with a child. So, that’s the cultural impediment that you’re trying to move. I always say a perfect world is where women have the choice to move in and out of the workforce with freedom. But it’s not even possible anymore to live in a one-income household. We’re almost living in the 1950s with that idea, when it was, but it’s not possible anymore.

So, if it’s not possible, knowing that, if we were to create society from scratch today, we would create a very different society. I was talking to a behavioral economist who was saying you would create more options for part-time work that was satisfying and fulfilling that paid well. You would think about this differently.

But it’s almost like we’re refusing to think about this differently. Even with the pandemic and how much society refused to accept remote work. I think something like 66% of employers are now back in the office even though we learned that flexibility was actually good for families. But the resistance towards doing something new is radical. That’s why what I am trying to do right now is so ambitious – because the headwinds against change are so strong in this country. But that has to change.”

To read more from Reshma Saujani, follow her on social media @ReshmaSaujani

Interviewed by Aimee Hansen