Playing for Success: A Conversation with Ellen Leikind
By Kathryn Nilsson Reichert (New York City)
Ellen Leikind is the founder of POKERprimaDIVAS, a company that provides corporate team-building programs that teach women how to play poker and use what they learn at the table to enhance their business skills. She is also a successful marketing executive who spent more than 15 years in the corporate world working for several Fortune 500 companies. The more she played poker, the more she saw the similarities with the larger game of business and personal fulfillment. Her new book, PokerWoman: How to Win at Love, Life, and Business Using the Principles of Poker, positions the card game as a metaphor for life.
TGH: Why poker?
EL: I decided to take a break from my career and during that time, I started to play poker again. And that’s when I started to see the connections between what you need to play poker, and what you need to survive in the boardroom and have a rewarding life.
TGH: Did you see distinct gender differences in how men and women play poker?
EL: Absolutely! I noticed that in poker, women tend to play more passively than men, and they strategize and assess risk in a different way. Women tend to play to avoid losing rather than to win. They protect their chips in the game and men try to get as many chips as they can. Playing it safe may keep you in your comfort zone. But it insures that the best you will do is mediocre.
TGH: So, your new book is not a “how to play poker” instruction guide.
EL: No, it’s a guide to applying the principles of poker to achieve the professional and personal success you want. Life is a gamble in so many ways, and we’re often dealt cards we don’t like, or don’t know what to do with, so why not learn how to make the most of the cards you get?
TGH: Many women haven’t ever played a game of poker.
EL: That’s likely true, but I often say to women, “you’ve been playing poker your whole life even if you’ve never played a game of cards.” The game is about reading non-verbal cues, being aggressive and assertive at the right time, and understanding risk versus reward. There is a huge psychological component to it. And women need to feel entitled to take their seat at the table.
TGH: Give us an example of playing to win.
EL: I did a lot of research for the book, and discovered that many women have the skills within themselves, but need to recognize them and use them strategically. I included real-life anecdotes in the book from women who applied winning poker strategies to get a promotion, a new career or the right guy.
I love the story of Katie, who was miserable at her job due to an abusive boss. She knew if she went to management, she was risking being seen as not being a team player, but she was so unhappy that she felt she had nothing to lose and might actually get moved to a better job. Unfortunately, management sided with her boss. She left without a new job, but six months later found a much better position with a better salary. The lesson? She took a chance and believed in herself. While it looked like she lost in the short run, she wound up a winner.
TGH: What is the most important thing you have learned while playing poker?
EL: That poker is a game about people and personalities. It’s a lot like therapy, and the more you play, the more you understand what motivates yourself and others. There are many different types of poker games: some require endurance, and some the stomach to endure losing all your chips in one hand. You need to find the one that matches your strengths and your tolerance for risk.
TGH: So, different games require different strategies?
EL: Exactly. Poker teaches you that you cannot play the same hand the same way against all people. It really provides a sense of being more empowered about everything in life. Playing poker helped me learn how to lose, and then get back up and get back in the game; how to bluff and pick up on people’s subtle body language; and how perception is oftentimes stronger than reality.
I want to help women overcome their fears and doubts about business and life, and make them stronger.